Reimagining School Inspections With Maryssa O'Connor

What if school inspections could be reimagined to be more developmental for schools, stakeholders, and authorities? Join Leisa Grace and Maryssa O'Connor, Principal and CEO of Gems Wellington School in Dubai, as they discuss her career journey and the importance of school inspections, transparency, and accreditation in international schools.

Don't miss this thought-provoking episode filled with valuable insights and ideas on how school leaders can use inspection frameworks to develop and achieve a sense of fulfilment. As we look ahead to the Middle East School Leadership Conference in February, we hope to continue this conversation with a wider audience and drive positive change for the future of school inspections.

Maryssa O’Connor was appointed as the Principal and Chief Executive Officer of GEMS Wellington International School in 2018. Maryssa has strengthened the school through sustainable systems and deep transformation in all aspects of its performance, and GEMS Wellington International School is now a globally recognised World Class School, delivering an outstanding educational experience for all students regardless of ability, including the IBDP and IBCP pathways to an exceptional level. This achievement has been recognised by BSO and DSIB. The school achieved COBIS Patrons membership in January 2023 with Beacon status for Leadership. Maryssa works extensively with worldwide educational partners to promote high-quality and inclusive education for all schools focusing on the IB and British Curriculum particularly. 

As an HPL Fellowship Principal, Maryssa is an expert coach in contemporary learning sciences, shaping educational futures with fellow ambitious, like-minded educationalists. Maryssa is also an associate member of the Association of Education Advisers, Fellow of the Chartered College of Teaching, Headmaster’s Conference member and collaborates with leaders across the world to create a cohesive, consistent and quality support system providing rigour, integrity and gravitas to systems, improving coherence and consistency throughout schools. Maryssa sits on the advisory boards for a number of partners, including 8Billionideas and HPL.

Maryssa graduated with a BA (Hons) in English Literature, holds the National Professional Qualification for Headship and is currently working towards the National Professional Qualification for Executive Leadership.  As a Senior Vice-President for GEMS Education, Maryssa works across the cluster of GEMS Wellington schools in Dubai and Qatar, as well as supporting educational strategy across the group.

Connect with Maryssa here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryssa-o-connor-fcct-ab93671a1/

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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:26

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Teach Middle East podcast and welcome to any new listeners we might be having on this episode. My name is Lisa Grace and today I am speaking with Marisa O'Connor and she is the principal and CEO of Gems Wellington School, dubai, and I'm going to ask her to introduce herself on the pod because her accolades are a lot more than what I just mentioned. But today we're talking inspection, inspection, inspection. We love to hate that topic in education, but I think Marisa is well placed, as a very experienced school leader, to talk us through some of the finer details of inspection and possibly we can look in our future and see where we could potentially take inspections going forward.

Speaker 2: 1:14

You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.

Speaker 1: 1:25

This is a developmental conversation and I want us to treat it as such. So if you're into inspection bashing, click off now. This is not what we're doing on this podcast. What we're doing is we're trying to rethink inspections in a way that they can be a little bit more developmental for the schools involved and for the authorities and stakeholders, etc. Long intro hi Marisa, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 3: 1:53

Hi, lisa Grace. Thanks for having me really appreciate it In terms of my title. Yes, i see your principal at Gems Wellington International School here in Dubai, but also have a role as senior vice president of education for Gems education here as well, and that means working across the cluster of schools and supporting the education strategy for Gems, which is an amazing opportunity for me as well.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Talking about developmental roles, Brilliant and I want to say congratulations on your recent inspection results outstanding.

Speaker 3: 2:26

I've heard Yes, so that was our, i think. Since the school opened it's the 12th inspection that we've had. Sorry, it's the 14th inspection that we've had and 12 of those have been outstanding. But, as you know, it's a big framework here in Dubai inspection framework, so they can be ups and downs, so this is by far one of our most positive inspections so far, so we're all really really pleased with it.

Speaker 1: 2:50

Brilliant. So take me back to your early career. Where did that begin? and kind of talk me to where you are now.

Speaker 3: 3:00

It's been a long career, lisa Grace. So I started teaching in the north east of England. I was an English teacher, so I still feel like an English teacher secondary trained, so working with students 11 to 18, the vast majority of my teaching career spent in what we would term in the UK challenging schools. But you know they're the most fun and you learn such a lot in schools where you have to work really hard. You know you work hard to engage the students, the staff pull together brilliantly and you really get to know how to work collaboratively within your own school and across all the other schools as well.

Speaker 3: 3:34

So I had great fun as a teacher in the north east of England and then moved down to the London region. I was lucky enough to be there during the London challenge, so all of that massive investment into education going in to the greater London area in the early sort of 2000, 2005. So that was incredible. Lots of growth opportunity there and then came back up to the north east as a deputy head. I took my first headship 11 years ago now. I had two headships in the UK and then came out to the UAE for a new adventure and I've been at Gems Wellington international school for six years. Now this is the end of my sixth year, so a great journey and leadership and just working collaboratively with so many amazing colleagues.

Speaker 1: 4:20

Brilliant. So, given your headship experience in the UK, you must have experienced off-stead what was that like?

Speaker 3: 4:29

Yeah. So I had experience with off-stead, with HMIs, with the Department for Education, had really great grounding, i think, in what it means to be a school leader, and what that taught me is really about the accountability role that school leaders have. In any industry, you will have some kind of compliance or governance or audit. You have to accept this and I think in teaching, ultimately, we are safeguarding our children. We're making sure that they get the best education they can have. We're looking for school improvement opportunities.

Speaker 3: 5:03

So all of those inspection opportunities really are about validating what I was trying to do in my schools with my teams and whether or not we were moving forward and if we were making some good decisions and also just seeking advice. You know there's in every off-stead team or inspection team or anybody who comes to the school, you are working with people who've got a lot of experience themselves and you do find that if you make a good connection with your inspectors, you know they are people who are interested in education and they want to step away from the framework at times as well and really just work with you as a school leader in terms of how can you move forward and what advice can they give. So yeah, it's daunting, undoubtedly when you're a head teacher in the UK and off-stead is coming, you know it obviously does test your metal, so to speak.

Speaker 1: 5:53

I remember that feeling, that dread, and I don't think they mean for it to be this sort of intimidating, but it certainly is intimidating as a school leader, knowing that off-stead is looming over your shoulders.

Speaker 3: 6:09

I think it depends where you are as a school as well, doesn't it? you know, if you are confident as a school leader, that you're really working hard and, let's face it, nobody comes into education without willing to work hard. So you know you're working really hard, you've got a great team around you. There will be challenges every school has challenges and if you're doing the best you can do and you're doing the right things and you are, you know, working towards the recommendations that the previous inspection might have given you or any other validation that you've had, you know. So I think there are opportunities to use those inspection reports, as developmental, as we've said, and looking for the opportunities as well as the challenges within the framework.

Speaker 1: 6:51

Yeah, definitely, i do agree with you. Here's my other question, though given your experience with off-stead and your experience with the KHDA DSIB, what are some of those major differences that you've noted between both systems?

Speaker 3: 7:07

Yeah, i mean, i think, frequency of inspection here in the UAE we have annual or 18 months depending on which emirate we're in, so they are more frequent here and that can be quite a shock for teachers when they first join the school if they haven't done their homework. But I think you know again, if you look at the context of where we are, there can be a lot of change in our schools here in the UAE. There can be, you know, lots of children joining and leaving, lots of teachers joining leaving leaders change. So I understand that. You know the inspection reports can give a consistency to parents who are looking at the schools and there are lots of schools to choose from, so that can be a really good piece of information for them. So I think one of the main differences is how frequently we inspect schools here. But I can see why that would be the case, whereas in the UK schools tend to be more stable. You know teachers stay there for longer, they're connected to their communities and you know they're in a closer network of schools as well. So yeah, i can see why that might be. That would be an important difference And I think also, obviously, the framework is big here. I think everybody recognizes that. But equally, when you look at the different kinds of schools we have here, you know many different curricula, many different models of schools And I think what the UAE regulators are trying to do is to sort of encapsulate that as much as possible so that all schools can demonstrate the growth and you know the journey of school improvements, no matter you know what kind of curriculum they have or where they are on that journey. So it can be quite daunting when you first come to the UAE and see that framework and how frequently you'll be visited. But I think when you contextualize it you can understand why it exists and the way it does.

Speaker 3: 8:48

Yeah, and you mentioned earlier, you know that off-stud is pretty scary. In the UK It feels like a big deal And I wonder if that is sometimes because of the timeframe between inspections. You know you can kind of feel like you've been left to your own devices for quite a while And that's a big responsibility, whereas here I think you know you get the reports, there are clear recommendations, you submit a post-inspection action plan, you use it for developments. You know you're working towards that next inspection as a piece to it And I think because of that piece. It feels less daunting in some respects. You know it's just you're on that momentum, So it kind of feels like you're just working towards it all of the time. Really Good point.

Speaker 1: 9:30

You feel like you're working towards it all the time It's a good thing, though, Marissa like.

Speaker 3: 9:37

I think, again, it depends how you use it, doesn't it? If you're using it as a school improvement tool, then you should be trying to improve all of the time, you know, and if you're using those guidance sensibly, you know, i think probably if that's all you did, then that would feel pretty limiting. You know, if all you did as a school leader was think about inspection, that's not a good place to be. So what you do is you bring it into your school improvement plan. Yeah, you have sight of it. You understand what the inspectors will be looking at next time they come, but equally, you want to also show that inspection team.

Speaker 3: 10:10

You know what amazing innovations and ideas the school have come up with, and you know what else is happening in the school to take the school forward. So I think you know, honestly, it's there, isn't it? You can't move away from this. But I think you have to balance it. And you know, when we talk about inspections, for me the biggest thing we can do is try and find some balance and equilibrium between school improvement and inspection. That would be the best place where you feel like you're sitting between those two places really.

Speaker 1: 10:40

Yeah, i like that And I like the fact that you brought in school improvement, because I often wonder how school leaders rationalize dealing with the recommendations from the inspection team that they come in for a few days And they look at the school. I'm sure they've got all the knowledge behind them, but you are the leader of that school and you know the intricacies and you know where the real needs are And you're the one formulating that stuff. And what if there are clashes? How do you rationalize between the two?

Speaker 3: 11:15

Yeah, i mean the school self-evaluation is crucial in that conversation. You know you're absolutely right to refer to that as like a key document, because We spend a lot of time in our school self-evaluation And if you are really trying to represent the school in that document, hopefully you won't have too many clashes or conversations. And actually my experience is that the inspectors are incredibly aware of the framework. They know your school, they know what's going on in the background. So if the SEMF is right, as accurate as it can be what you would do in yourself is outline what your next steps are. And quite often there's a real kind of link between what the school leader has identified as the next steps and what the inspection team identifies as recommendations.

Speaker 3: 12:02

And it doesn't matter whether you're at good, very good, outstanding. If you can try and find that place where you are on the same page, then that makes a really positive experience. If you disagree, i think what you have to remember is you're working with very experienced school leaders And it can be really hard to hear that what you think is happening actually, from a different lens, doesn't look like that. But there'll be a reason for that And I think what we have to do as school leaders is try and understand what that reasoning is and what they've seen and what evidence they've seen or what information they have that is giving them a different picture. So we try and rationalize it that way.

Speaker 1: 12:43

Yeah, i wonder, though, when schools are being inspected and it's like someone coming to your house and you have small kids and they're coming to dinner, you move the toys out of the way and put stuff on the shelf and put the handkerchiefs, and so sometimes what the inspectors are seeing isn't truly and I'm not saying this is for your school, but some schools isn't truly a reflection of the day-to-day happenings in the school, and so they might leave recommendations that truly do not reflect. I wonder which one supersedes. That's my curiosity.

Speaker 3: 13:24

Yeah. So I think we've moved away a little bit from that showcasing actually, and I think in some ways Ofsted really did drive this change around inspections because they use the phrase typicality. They want to know what does it look and feel like on a typical day? And I think everybody increases their game during inspection. Everybody is really working hard and wants to show themselves as their best, and the children really rise to it as well. They feel that tension as well.

Speaker 3: 13:54

But I do think the best way to approach inspection is to try and be as transparent as possible, because it is a lot of work preparing for inspection, the inspection itself, responding to the framework, responding to the recommendations, the self-evaluation All of that is a lot of work And I think what school leaders, when you get the most room in inspection, is when you've tried to be as transparent and honest as possible Because, like you said, there's a disconnect And those recommendations aren't really helping you. They might be sort of steering you on a path that you think isn't where you thought you were going And that's not helpful. So I would say the best recommendation I've got for anybody preparing for an inspection is to think about an honest and typical self-evaluation. You want to showcase what's going well. You want to really celebrate those things. But equally, try and be honest. You're the school leader. You know your school really well. Try and be honest about where are the things that you're still working on And what are you doing about that, because everybody will be doing something.

Speaker 3: 14:57

There's always that drive for improvement And I think personally we are here in the UAE. We've got some of the best school leaders, the hardest working teams. I really do genuinely believe that. I work with a lot of schools and know a lot of head teachers and principals And everybody just wants the best. They want their children in every year groups to have an amazing experience. So there's no point trying to kind of divert a smoke and mirrors kind of approach. It doesn't help anybody.

Speaker 1: 15:27

So I would say be as open and transparent as you can be Very much so What is the pressure like between the school owners and the school leaders being transparent? So let me frame this question a little bit better. You're a school leader. You understand the need for authenticity, the need for transparency, but then you have maybe a school owner, possibly not a big organization like Gems. We're putting ourselves in a small organization, maybe individual owner or maybe a small family run school, that type thing And they want you to shine the mirrors and vacuum the carpet before they come, so much so that you can't put a true reflection on yourself, because that affects what goes out, and then it might affect the results, which might affect the ability to increase school fees, which then affects their bottom line. How does a school leader grapple with something like that?

Speaker 3: 16:36

I mean, i've never come across that, Lisa Grace, so I would be surprised if there is such a pressure. I've never heard of it, i have to be honest. I think probably, again, it comes down to transparency, doesn't it? What you want is to be all the time, be really transparent about what's happening in the school, about what the great things are, and there'll always be something to celebrate, and I think the relationship between the school leader and the school owner is just about genuine integrity for the education at the school. Again, it comes back to why would you have that school owner who was trying to do something different?

Speaker 3: 17:14

I think, genuinely, here and in my experience of independent schools elsewhere, there is an integrity You want the school to do well, because the school is a great opportunity for all of the children in it. So I think transparency and making sure that everybody understands that big picture there will always be an opportunity for challenge around self-evaluation. I think one of the most important roles there is some kind of school improvement partner. I don't know whether you've come across that, but there's different ways you can model that and it's kind of a link between the governance and the school leader.

Speaker 3: 17:51

So, it's this, somebody who sits there, who is really working closely with the school leader, supporting them with everything they're doing, but equally is able to be quite honest and open about what still needs to be done next. So they're a really great person to sit between any kind of governance structure that you've just described.

Speaker 1: 18:11

I would say Yeah, i like that idea and I've actually seen that at work.

Speaker 3: 18:15

And I know I'm sorry, i kind of sprung that question on you, but I just wanted to That sounded a bit vague, because I've never experienced it And I like to say And it's fine.

Speaker 1: 18:26

Yeah, it's fine if you haven't, and I think it's given the kind of wide audience that I speak to. I have heard of scenarios like that where there's such an immense pressure on the school leader to make things look better than they are because there are inspectors coming And people who are listening to this podcast. You can shout me out anonymously in the comments or anywhere and let me know if this has been your experience. You can message me or something, because I know I've had that experience not me personally, but I've heard of it from colleagues who said they really want me to make blood out of stone.

Speaker 1: 19:06

But let's switch the conversation up a little bit.

Speaker 3: 19:09

I was just gonna say one thing that, Lisa, because we talked about accreditation previously and different ways of validating standards, And that might be something that, if a school leader finds themselves in that position, that might be another way that they can try and validate the work that they're doing, bringing in a different lens, a different type of inspection, if you like, but through an accreditation program that could be useful.

Speaker 1: 19:33

Actually, that's what I was going on to next, because I know I love the idea of the school improvement partner and I think quite a few institutions here have them, whether they're consultants or they're on staff or they're a team that are maybe at central office and then they go to different schools at different times. There are different models, but I think it's a good idea And I wanted to really dive into this other aspect of our conversation around rethinking it in terms of removing the grading and looking at it from a accreditation standpoint. What value do you think that would add?

Speaker 3: 20:10

Yeah, so I mean, accreditation usually carries some kind of grading as well, and it's difficult to move away from that, isn't it? Because it's always this kind of summary of findings that ultimately describe the overall standard of the school. But I do think what we need to establish within any kind of inspection framework is that the grading represents a much more detailed report and a lot more information about the school, and just that might be summarized in one word. So one thing I would say in terms of value of an inspection report or an accreditation report is to read the detail, because that's where the real information about the school is. If we were to move towards a non-graded process, then that school improvement partner really would be very, very important. Whatever form they take, somebody to work alongside the leader to really guide them towards those next recommendations as well, i think.

Speaker 3: 21:03

I mean, i don't know, do parents want a grading? The school leaders want a grading? It works both ways, doesn't it? Some people make real pride in that. It gives the school a focus, something to work towards. So I think, again, it depends on the weights that you give the grading, as opposed to the weight that you give the content of the recommendations and the report as a whole Yeah no, you're correct, You're very right.

Speaker 1: 21:28

But here's the thing that I don't really appreciate about what's happening with the grading here is that it's tied to school fee increments. If that could be separate, i think it would be a little bit more developmental in nature for the schools. I just wondered, though, like now, as a parent, so let me give you a little anecdote. When I heard that school fee increments were going to be attached, i'm like please don't let my kids school me outstanding, which is anti, what you want. You want it to be outstanding, you don't want an increase. So you're kind of like going, don't be outstanding, just be, just be average. So I can, you know, control my budget, but I mean. Jokes aside. I think, though, that grading they have a place, because it's a benchmark. It's something that you have to work towards.

Speaker 1: 22:27

But here's a throwaway thought What if we switch to a more KPI based model? I wonder what that would look like, meaning KHD or SPIA or any of the bodies ADEC they come up with, instead of the framework being the way it is. They come up with a set of KPIs, and then the schools must meet these KPIs on a continuum, and so, instead of a grade, you have met these KPIs. You are meeting or on your way to meeting them, and these are the things you're putting in place, or you are far away from meeting these KPIs, and so so no school is outstanding. Your school is either meeting those KPIs or they're not, and this is what they're doing. What are your thoughts around a model like that?

Speaker 3: 23:19

And would those KPIs be sort of contextualized to the individual school? Is that what you're saying, so that it wouldn't be the same KPIs for all schools? It would be dependent on the school itself How long it had been open. How would you benchmark the?

Speaker 1: 23:32

KPIs. So those KPIs would be a mix of two things. They would be a mix of national standards KPIs are mapped to the national standards And then there would be some school based one, based on where your areas of weaknesses are weaknesses or areas for improvement And so you have those two categories And with the national standards and the national KPIs, then we can look at how you're faring on a you know national level And then you can look at how you are doing on a school wide level. So there is that possibility.

Speaker 3: 24:12

Yeah, i mean, i think that information is there within the framework. Now I think what you're saying is we just shift the emphasis a little bit. You know, i think most schools probably already develop their school improvement planning around a set of KPIs that may well be matched to the inspection framework or an accreditation route that they're following. So the idea of KPIs and benchmarking, i think school leaders are very familiar with already. I think, again, it's the emphasis, isn't it? So that comes back to the point of the detail in the report, and understanding the school is equally, if not more, important than that. You know final grading, so I don't think it would necessarily change too much about the way that our school leaders are working and thinking actually. So that would be interesting.

Speaker 3: 24:57

You know the UK used to do something similar around contextual value added. You'll have heard of that phrase, yeah, and I think you were probably in the UK when they still used it, and that's a similar kind of idea, isn't it? It's about benchmarking the school's performance against, you know, the context around that school, so that can be a really interesting journey to take a school on as well. Actually, yeah, i just feel like you know you mentioned development. Would it be more developmental.

Speaker 3: 25:23

I genuinely think that school leaders look for opportunities to develop in whatever framework or, you know, inspection or accreditation that they work in within. I do think that's vital to them because you always want to see growth in your school. You always want to see your teachers and your leaders, you know, developing professionally and achieving a sense of fulfilment, because that comes from when the children are doing really well. So I think we're really good at holding ourselves to account in that sense And that they're all intrinsically linked. You know, if we feel like we're doing a good job, we can see the successes of the students and we can see the growth of our teachers Whoever comes to visit the school. That's what we want to be talking about.

Speaker 1: 26:06

I think, yeah, i think school leaders are fantastic in knowing how to look for ways to improve their schools, etc. I just think if the grades were removed and we had that you know model I was just describing, then everyone else would pay more attention to the details. So I did kind of like a straw poll of some of my mommy friends and I'm like have you read your schools? because it's all there online Like, have you ever read your school's inspection report? You want to know my results? No, they didn't.

Speaker 3: 26:41

Ask for it. So you know, one thing schools can do and this is something I've seen more schools develop is like more of a kind of parent headlines kind of version. You know, and actually the KHDA did a summary report for parents this year, which I thought was a really great initiative because it just cuts down on some of the detail and it gives parents a little bit more insight into what the schools are doing and sees some of the detail as well. And you know, what I will say is that, working with the regulators here, they are open, they are innovative, they do want their schools to be the best in the world. You know there is a drive for that, which is amazing.

Speaker 3: 27:18

So when you look at things like the change in framework around well-being and inclusion and governance, you know those really big, important things. They've been incredibly collaborative. They want to hear schools views. They've, you know, consulted with principals and specialists within the schools. You know they take that into account. So I do think you know ideas like yours around a, you know, a KPI benchmarking who knows? I think here is where you're more likely to see that initiative or innovation than perhaps the parts of the world for sure.

Speaker 1: 27:52

Yeah, i'm going to definitely send the episode to Dr Delon For sure, for real.

Speaker 3: 27:58

I will.

Speaker 1: 28:01

I think you need to listen to this episode and see what ideas we have around, how school improvement can be done, but I think they're doing a phenomenal job. You know, when I came out here in 2010, watching the trajectory is amazing. I think they're ambitious. I think the drive is relentless. I think if there is going to be any sort of innovation happening, it's going to start here, because they're insatiable when it comes on to wanting to be the best at what they're doing, and I love it.

Speaker 3: 28:34

Completely agree, lisa Grace, and you know you see the impact of that. if you know, we see the inspection reports themselves. But then when you look at how well UA is doing against global standards through PISA and TINS and Wells incredible growth just in the time that I've been here. And even through the pandemic, you know we talk about the pandemic as this, as this gap in development. It wasn't here. You know, schools really use that as an opportunity to innovate and think about. you know, how do children learn well, how do teachers get professional development? What works? How do we communicate with our parents? You know. so I think every opportunity here, like you say, is taken as exactly that. So there's a challenge and opportunity. What can it bring about? What growth will we get from this?

Speaker 3: 29:17

And, yeah, i agree that insatiable kind of appetite for education standards being the best. And you know the other thing I've noticed as well around that is, you know, parents and families are staying longer. now I think, yeah, so our families that cross our schools, the retention is much higher than it used to be. So we're seeing the facing schools and the system here, because people want to keep their children here. They're completing their education. They get an amazing result. They're going off to great opportunities in education globally, here in the UAE as well. You know it's like if you don't grow, why do you want to fix it? Yeah, you know. yes, inspections are hard work, but if they're working, you know, let's work with them and let's see how we can continue to improve that system as a development opportunity, rather than seeing it, as you know, a sort of a drawback to the education system. It really is something that is pushing the standard.

Speaker 1: 30:11

Yes, it is, and that's why I said at the start of the podcast, if you were coming in for a bashing of inspections here, wrong podcast, because I do believe that accountability drives standards up. Yes, you might feel as if it's a lot. The only thing I would advocate for is less emphasis on the grading and more on the details. And then I got my question. I asked before about to my mom's group on WhatsApp. None of them have read the report. They all looked at what what grading it was, and I want to change. I want to read the details. I was the only one, yes, because I'm an ex principal, so of course I read the report. Like, but they haven't read the report and they need to, because there's a lot in there that can be of real value to parents.

Speaker 3: 31:02

Absolutely. I mean, i'm taking something here from what you're saying there. You know, i think, how we're doing enough to really inform our parents of what that detail looks and feels like. you know, i think we're better at communicating than we've ever been, but absolutely could we spend a little bit more time just really on picking some of those finer details. So when we make a change because parents are with us on that change journey as well, aren't they? So when a school makes a change, i think sometimes that can feel a bit overwhelming. It's like, why are we changing? It was fine. Actually, if they understand why that change is being made and we contextualize it, that can be a really positive thing as well.

Speaker 1: 31:39

Yeah, brilliant. See, what did I tell you about our time on this podcast? We are shameful when it comes on to keeping that 30 minutes. We don't do well, but we love a good conversation and we love a developmental conversation and we love to, you know, really investigate what we can do to continue to improve as an education system here in the UAE and the Middle East. What advice would you give to newcomers? So let's say someone has just come into the region as a school leader. They might be carrying baggages of previous systems, potentially offset from the UK, having you know that kind of thing. They're carrying a bag of things over their shoulder and they're coming into a system where really the driver change is more of a developmental one than a punitive one. What advice would you give them in preparing for their first inspection here in Dubai, or even Abu Dhabi, etc.

Speaker 3: 32:38

I mean, i think that mindset is crucial, isn't it is to approach the inspection as an opportunity, you know, as a school leader, to really demonstrate that you've taken a school and you're excited about that, you're ambitious for the school and also that you understand where the school is at. So my advice would be to really take time over that self-evaluation work with the team. There might be people in that school who know it you know better in more detail than you do as a new leader. So really, you know, work with the team and get to know the school And I think, just be as transparent as you can be in that experience and really go into it with an open mind and conversation with your lead inspector and with the inspection team.

Speaker 3: 33:18

In the wider context, i've just, like you know, i've been here. You might have only been there for a few months by the time that that happens. So just being really transparent and open and trust yourself. I think, as a school leader, you know leaders are incredibly knowledgeable and skillful and you know they have this breadth of knowledge built up over years being in the education system. Nobody is born a principal. You know you learn over time and you learn from other people. So, i think, really trust yourself There's a reason why you've been appointed to that role and just present as much as you can openly and just be really willing to learn from the experience, i think, and take that feedback and those recommendations in the tool that it's meant, which is to help you continue with your school improvement journey.

Speaker 1: 34:15

It's the topic everybody loves to hate, but I think the way you framed it and the way the conversation has progressed, i think it's the start, obviously, and we can continue having this conversation. We hope to have a bigger stage for it at the Middle East School Leadership Conference in February, where we'll assemble our team of school leaders to unpack some of these things that we've started in this podcast around inspection and around how we can ensure that it works for the school, because that's the intention. The intention is to drive change in a positive direction, not to beat everyone down I know it feels that way sometimes, but it really isn't the intention. The intention is to drive up standards so that everyone benefits. All stakeholders benefit, absolutely. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 35:03

Thank you so much, Lisa Grance, and see you soon.

Speaker 2: 35:07

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