Teach Middle East Podcast
Welcome to the Teach Middle East Podcast, the ultimate audio hub where educators find inspiration, share innovative ideas, and grow together! Brought to you by Moftah Publishing—the minds behind the premier Teach Middle East Magazine—this podcast is your gateway to the latest research-based practices, cutting-edge classroom strategies, and the heartwarming stories of educators from the Middle East and around the globe.
As the only podcast that interviews school leaders from across the Middle East and beyond, we offer unparalleled insights into the challenges and successes that shape educational landscapes in diverse settings. Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating world of education, where every episode promises a treasure trove of insights designed to connect, develop, and empower the brilliant minds shaping our future. Whether you’re seeking fresh perspectives, practical tips, or a dose of inspiration, the Teach Middle East Podcast is your must-listen resource. Tune in and transform the way you teach!
Teach Middle East Podcast
Why School Leaders Must Rethink Mentorship and Self-Care With Nadine Powrie
In this episode, Nadine Powrie shares her journey from a French assistant to a leader in some of the UK's most challenging schools. Drawing on experiences from New Zealand and Australia, she discusses how research, collaboration, and continuous learning have shaped her approach to education and school inspections.
Mentorship played a crucial role in Nadine's development, especially her relationship with Derek Wise, CBE, which encouraged bold decision-making and effective communication. Now a thinking partner herself, Nadine shares practical strategies for maintaining integrity, handling difficult conversations, and balancing well-being while leading today's educational landscape.
Connect with Nadine at nadinepowrie.com or on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nadine-powrie/
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
Connect with Leisa Grace:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace
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You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace, and welcome back to the Teach Middle East podcast, and welcome if this is your first time listening to the podcast. It is today my pleasure to introduce to you my friend, nadine Porey, on the podcast. But she's much more than just my friend. She is a worldwide education leader, coach, consultant, inspector you name it former school leader. She wore, or wears that hat. So today we're going to be chatting leadership on the podcast. We're going to be talking about some of the big questions in leadership. So if you're a school leader or an aspiring school leader, pull up a chair, get your coffee or your tea and listen to this episode. Because here's a fact Nadine does this work globally and we're having this work for free on the podcast today, so do not take it for granted. Sit down, listen, learn and share. Welcome, nadine.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much for inviting me on your podcast, lisa, and I'm glad that you've recorded that beginning, because I'm going to play it all the time to make me feel really good about myself. So thank you you deserve it.
Speaker 2:You deserve all of it. No word of a lie, nadine. Tell me about little Nadine. Where did you grow up? What was life like for little Nadine?
Speaker 3:oh, little Nadine, I quite like that. Actually, I grew up in France. As you can hear, my English accent, I've cracked it and this has been a bit of an issue for me actually. And yeah, I grew up in France and left France at about 21. I did all my education in France my background for that is French but came into the UK I was a French assistant in a school in Warrington near Manchester and that was the beginning of my life in the uk and started to work in the uk and my first job in the uk was at the university of newcastle and that was a great start for me.
Speaker 3:Co-wrote a book with who was going to become my future husband, book on marketing actually. And yeah, I went from there. Then went back to working in a school, a very challenging school I think. At the time the result the GCSE results, I think were 12 percent. I think when you've worked in a school like that, you learn a tremendous amount and I think it couldn't have been a better start for me yes, challenging, but learned a great deal.
Speaker 3:Then went to work for a wonderful, wonderful school called Cramlington At the time was Cramlington High School, but now Cramlington Learning Village, and I understand that I know, in fact, I know that some of my former colleagues now work in Dubai, so yeah, and had an amazing head called Derek Wise. In fact, I want to share something because it's something that I did when I became head. We had a research group in the school and I've always been very academic. I always like research, and Derek wanted us to look at best practice in the world. And I'm saying that because when I was young, I loved reading, I was very curious and I never lost that. And Derek said to us you can put together suggestions, plan a proposal on where you would like to go around the world and what you would like to look at and I was particularly interested in gifted and talented children and inquiry-based learning curriculum. And I put a proposal together, thinking there is absolutely no way that he's going to want to say yes to that because it was term time. And then one morning he got me into his office his hands in his pocket. He would always do that. Actually, absolutely no way that he's going to want to say yes to that because it was term time. And then one morning he got me into his office his hands in his pocket. He would always do that actually? And he said you'd better pack up because you're off to New Zealand and Australia to look at those schools. And I thought, oh my gosh, and that really made me and shaped who I became. And later on, when I was a head teacher, I actually did the same thing for my staff and I offered an opportunity for them to go and see what was happening in the world, in America particularly. So, yeah, and then I became head and fantastic experience and loved every second of it.
Speaker 3:And there is always a critical moment in life and my father passed away and before he passed away he said to me you're working too much, you're working too hard, and my children are always the ones that I ask questions if I want to know the truth. So I asked them. I said, do I look tired? And in fact they were very blunt with me and they said, yes, you've aged 10 years. And I thought, ok, maybe it's time to do something. And I've always dreamt of having my own business. And when I was the head at Fermi Academy actually it's the school I converted into an academy the parents were always saying that I was running the school as if it was a business, but actually, you know, as an academy, it is a business and I always loved that entrepreneurial mindset and I thought when that entrepreneurial mindset and I thought when, after my dad passed away, I thought maybe it's time for me to start something new.
Speaker 3:Although I believe that in life, everything we do is a continuity of events, I think when you look back at it, there is a logic in it and I set up my own business and here I am feeling very privileged to be invited to work in schools as a school improvement partner to do some inspections, and I see inspections as working with the school. You don't do it to them, you do it with them. That's how I see inspections and just loving it, because there are millions of teachers and head teachers in the world who are doing a fab job and I hope that with the work that I do with them, I hope that I make a difference, which is something that I've always wanted to do, even when I was young. So it's interesting at my age, because I am aging and I did a post on LinkedIn on that actually when you perhaps reflect in a different way, because you become very aware of mortality and the legacy that you want to leave and what's the impact that I'm doing Because it sounds and look good to travel the world, but actually there is a lot of work behind it that people don't see, even in the planning of it, and what's the difference that I am making to those people? And I think that it's becoming clearer and clearer because I like to be precise and accurate and there's that side of me. I'm very clear about what I can bring to the table and if I can't help, I'm also very clear and very confident to say I'm not sure I can help you with that, but I know a lot of people who could. So that's the little Nadine who has become who I am and very, very content, very happy. And I also want to say that I think what drives me in life is the fact that I'm a mother and for me, being a mother has changed everything in my life and has hugely impacted on how I've led and who I've been, as a leader and even in my job right now as a partner or consultant, whatever title.
Speaker 3:I have having children, four kids actually, who all went through British system universities, british universities, doing different jobs, now all in the world of work, and also being a grandmother. I have four grandchildren, two more on the way, so by next April I'll have six grandchildren. So it's like a mini classroom already in my house and I think that has always kept me in perspective of the work that I do. We want to make the world better for the children. We want to help as much as we can those schools, staff and leaders and even the non-teacher.
Speaker 3:I think it's really important and the question I ask myself and, like you know, people who are listening will not be surprised that I share that is would I put my grandchildren now in that school, in that classroom? Before it used to be, when I wasn't a grandmother, it used to be would I put my children in? But now my children, I shift them on the on the side, and now it's. Would I put my, my grandchildren and? But now my children, I shift them on the side and now it's. Would I put my grandchildren? And not so long ago I visited a few schools and I was like, yeah, I would definitely put Sienna in here. I'd put Isaac in here for different reasons because every grandchild is very different. Gosh, I've gone away from your question because I'm loving it.
Speaker 2:I'm listening and I'm loving it. You mentioned something earlier about the person that your mentor, the gentleman who actually said pack up, you're going to New Zealand, you're going to Australia, you're going to look at these systems. What role do you think mentorship play in developing future leaders? Because he saw something in you. There must be that person who helps you. What's that role?
Speaker 3:It's interesting to talk about mentorship and to talk about coaching right, because it's two different things. And I think for me he played the role of being my thinking partner. His name was Derek Wise, obe, and he was more of a thinking partner because of the way that he was making me and others think, always forward, thinking the what's next, and I think that he developed a thinking environment in the school through the research group where, yes, we were discussing research but at the same time, there was a lot of mentoring going through that, because we were having some discussions and it was really encouraging me becoming almost an independent learner and almost autonomous with my own thoughts on, for example, the work on gifted and talented that I was doing in the school. And it was also really a listener. I would give some ideas and he was also really a listener. I would give some ideas. And I remember when I came back from New Zealand I then did a presentation to SLT and he said to me he said if it had been the World Cup, france would have won. You know that was the kind of feedback that he was giving me.
Speaker 3:When I left to go to my deputy headship, he called me. You know the speech right. When people leave and they make a speech about you. I actually think that this is a great time when you leave a school, because people say things about you that they never tell you, whether they're mentoring you or coaching you, they don't tell you those things. And in his speech he called me Mrs Powerhouse and I thought, oh my gosh, mrs Powerhouse, really Me. I was quite surprised actually, but as a mentor, I think he shaped, he transformed my thinking, probably made me more confident in speaking up, because at the time I was probably more on the shy side of things. I would become. I think he got me out of my little shell to make me blossom, and I think it's not everybody has the talent to do that the guy was. He wasn't liked by everybody, he had his own way of leading, but with me we just clicked and it was absolutely fine and you know huge respect for what he did for me to make me grow, to make me develop and to encourage me to take risks Going to New Zealand for four weeks during term time. Well, I had to leave the cover work because I was still teaching, even as an assistant head, and I knew that it wasn't too jolly, I had to bring home some research, what I had seen there to make some recommendations on. Okay, so how can we apply that? What can we tweak? Do we need this? Do we need that To shift and transform further the school? So it was empowering me to make some decisions, because you have to filter the new things that you see, because you can't talk about everything, to continue to make a difference.
Speaker 3:I think for me it's more than being a mentor or a coach I actually don't really like the word coaching because now everybody's a coach in the world. I think I prefer to be a thinking partner, and here I'm thinking about Nancy Klein. I've done her training and that's why, as well, on LinkedIn, I've changed my title to being a partner, because I also think that by challenging him at time in the kind of reverse mentoring, I think I've made him think differently and I think that being a thinking partner can go both ways and forever grateful to what he gave me and all my life I have tried to role model what I have learned from him to others and I would hope that I've done it. I know I've done it to the best I could and I hope that people would recognize that, certainly, and the feedback that I've received. I think that's what people say.
Speaker 3:But you try to give it all right. When you're with people, you try to give your best and I think that at times people are not necessarily ready to receive everything that you give, because sometimes I want to give a lot and I know, given my personality and given my enthusiasm and my passion, I know that at times it can be quite overwhelming for people. I know that at times it can be quite overwhelming for people. So it's about learning to look for the signs that. Okay, I'll just slow down my mentoring here or my thinking partnership, I'll just pause here and invite them to silence or reflection, thinking time. I think that he's taught me to do that as well to scan, because when you're passionate, you want to share with people, you want to talk, you want to give. But I think it's really important to understand that not everybody receives and can receive the information in the same way, and to learn to understand and capture the signs that they're giving you when clearly it's kind of enough. I now need to go away and think. You see, I'm doing it right now because you're asking me a question and I've been speaking for about five minutes, but I think it's important to understand who you're talking to and to respect how do they want this conversation to, to go and to give them that time to process what you're saying.
Speaker 3:And I think he gave me that and the other thing that he gave me, which at the time I wasn't aware actually, you know, we had to do a research proposal. You have to write well, okay, because you have to write the rationale. Why on earth would a school want to send one of his assistant head on the other side of the world to go and look at gifted and talented and inquiry-based curriculum? Why can't you do it nearer the UK? Because actually it might be more cost-effective. It's school money, time having cover for my classes and making sure that I bring value to money.
Speaker 3:So, writing a proposal with persuasive arguments that actually, yeah, it's cost effective, it's value for money, I think that's a skill and at the time I didn't know that he was giving me an opportunity to actually start thinking the way you organize your thinking and he made me think about clearly, about how you present an argument. You're almost like you almost become a lawyer, right, you defend something that you believe in and that you're going to want to go and explore, and the power of the writing skills as well, because in this world, particularly in the world of artificial intelligence and all of that right, it's very easy to ask ChatGPT, right, chatgpt, write me this and write me that. But actually it's made me reflect on the skills, the writing skills that I had as an individual and how do you use that to influence people? Because I think that there is a place as well to, yes, speak to people, but also how you write, how you present yourself in writing and in speaking. And I've carried that, because now I do actually keep growing and I do some creative writing workshops and writing skills workshop, where I'm a student, right, I'm being taught, because I think that it's important to still draw on your talents and on who you are to practice those skills. I think because we type all the time, it's not the same as writing and I think it's really nice to continue to write because you can be quite creative when you do that and when you write it's different than when using a keyboard, and he told me that as well, that you know at time it's great to not be driven by what everybody else is doing AI, for example, but to keep your own identity of what you want to do, what you are passionate about, what you're best at.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, writing is something that I've continued doing, the way that I put ideas together, the why, always go back to your why and be very clear about that, and it might be a draft, right it might be.
Speaker 3:This morning I was doing a coaching session actually with somebody in Dubai a leader in Dubai and we talked about when do you have a final document right? When is it the final version? Because I think we grow all the time. My mindset, my thinking is not the same when I get up and when I go to bed, because I've spoken to many people during the day and they have influenced the way I have thoughts and they've also given me ideas. So I think we grow every day and I think it's nice, it's great to capture that and to continue to have your own identity. And, yeah, the simple fact of holding a pen I think that I will remember that from him. I still have my Montblanc pen that I had at the school you know, sometimes it's sentimental value but actually the power of writing and the power of explaining your why in writing, your reasoning behind that and how you construct. That, I think, is a good exercise to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to change gears. You talked about writing and recently you wrote on LinkedIn about micromanagement and I really that post resonated a lot with me and I think it might resonate a lot with our school leaders, and so I wanted to ask you, how do school leaders recognize when they are crossing that line and becoming micromanagers?
Speaker 3:I think it depends the kind of leader that you are, because if you are self-reflecting, you might find yourself giving a lot of instructions. So do this, do that? Have you done asking a lot of questions, the kind of check-in? When I was a head teacher, I had a coach, actually, and we agreed that for a period of time, every night I would reflect on the three best things that I was doing and one thing that I need to improve on, and I think that exercise has helped me clearly reflect on yeah, sometime I was probably asking more check-ins and that could have been a warning sign. Am I micromanaging? But I think I would really encourage people to do that little exercise because it can be a self-measure of actually looking back at the five days. I keep asking those questions. Am I checking in on people? Because I don't trust them, and I think another side is that you end up very stressed and very exhausted. So if you are exhausted and if you are stressed, ask yourself are you doing your job or are you doing the job of other people? And do you lack energy because you're doing too many check-ins to people? And is your team not telling you that you are micromanaging? So what trust have you developed with your team if they are not telling you that you are micromanaging?
Speaker 3:One of the things that I keep talking about my headship, but one of the things that I was very lucky when I became a head I don't know if it's luck, but I had an amazing PA who then I appointed to become an exec assistant and I was asking her some feedback Regularly. I was asking her some feedback. Do you think I'm too much this or not enough that? And she was very blunt with me. Right, she was very honest and you know, when you do something wrong, be it micromanagement or anything else I think you do need to have honest people around you. So I think one of the ways to counteract the micromanagement because if you are micromanaging people, you are absolutely crushing innovation, you're crushing creativity People will go because you're not really empowering them. But for somebody like me I mean, I'm quite a control freak. So you could argue did you micromanage at some point in your career? Yeah, probably I did. Probably I did, and, interestingly, I probably micromanage staff who are more experienced than younger staff, staff who were more experienced than younger staff. I remember appointing some entities as head of science and head of English and then be more on the back of certain middle leaders. I probably did that in my career.
Speaker 3:I don't think I'd be surprised to hear that nobody has ever macro-managed their life, because you learn by doing perhaps what you shouldn't be doing. And I think for me the way to step back is to have the courage to say to your team okay, here is my vulnerability, here is what I do too much of or not enough of. Could you tell me when I'm doing that, which is what I did with my PA, actually? And because I think that those are people who can tell you very honestly what they think, how they feel. You need trust for that, obviously, but at some point you do need to establish trust for people to give you someone else's feedback, otherwise they're never going to give you that. And I think that being open and having the courage to be open and to accept I remember my PA telling me well, the parents think that you know, at the very beginning of my headship, right, you're very cold.
Speaker 3:I remember at some point you don't smile enough or you smile too much, and I think you do need to listen to the feedback. You know we've gone a bit away from the micromanagement. But my point being that if you're asking people, then they can give you feedback. But even better if you are encouraging a culture where people can give you feedback without you asking, I think that's even better. We call that feed-forwards. People feel free and safe to give you that powerful feedback where they can say, yeah, you're crossing a bit the red line here. We just need to point you back on the do not micromanage and then that's okay.
Speaker 3:I think it's easy maybe to micromanage when you have very high standards, very high KPIs. You know there's the whole world on the back of you and you think if I was doing that myself, it'd be quicker. We've all gone through that. But at the end of the day, we have a duty to prepare the next generation and to let them make mistakes and to let them learn. Otherwise we're not doing them a service at all and we're not preparing the generation of future leaders. And I think once you get that, then you can let go. Learning to let go can be quite difficult for some people. I've had to learn to let go on some things in my life and it's fine, I'm still here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wanted to ask you because you were talking about the fact that we all have made mistakes as leaders. If you've ever led anything, whether it's a school, a business, an organization, whatever, we've all made mistakes. But then I wanted to find out from you sort of like how do you maintain your integrity while you're navigating those challenging dilemmas? Because sometimes the mistakes we make is not because we're unethical, but we've genuinely made mistakes. But how do we navigate that? How do we fess up to the mistakes that we've made as leaders?
Speaker 3:I think the culture for me comes into that Because of my French background. I studied philosophy at school and I've always been interested in philosophy and I still learn philosophy. I'm a student, I take learn philosophy. I'm a student, I take philosophy lessons.
Speaker 3:I think I've always liked Aristotle and who did a lot of questioning on who do I want to be. Who do I want to be as a leader who has integrity? Okay, that's a question in my life that has come up a lot. I've always loved the work that Kant did on the moral duty, integrity and the moral duty. So in school, the duty of care at what point do you cross the red line? And for me, to keep my integrity, I had different strategies. So strategy number one, obviously understanding who I was, who I am and my values and the values of the school. And it's better when they're aligned, because when they don't align you've got a big problem, an internal turmoil really. So it's better when they're aligned, but it's also having the right people around you. So I had a great share of governors in both headships so I drew on them when I had a moral, ethical issue. I openly have conversation with them and discuss that with them. But equally, I did a post on my husband actually on LinkedIn, got me so many views on that. You know I call it the plus one, right? The person who is next to you in your life and who shares with you everything from morning to you know, 24 hours a day. You do talk to them about your deepest ethical, moral issues and I think my husband deserves a medal actually on listening to what could have been and what has been at times, some moral issues for me. But equally, we've all got the close friends right For me. I have two close friends in France and we've been friends since I was a little girl, right, they would know the why I'm asking myself those questions about that integrity.
Speaker 3:But also I think it's in school you can also tap into HR. I've talked to some absolutely awesome HR director. When you go to them and say, actually there is this issue with the staff, what can we do to help? But where is the boundary as well, because you can't help everybody forever. There are things you can't do. So we're tapping into HR, tapping into organizations that you are affiliated with. So for me, I've got a postgrad in HR. So CIPD is always something you know. I go into their forum and say, okay, has anybody got the same problem as me? And how did they tackle that with that integrity hat on right and just tapping into?
Speaker 3:I was a head of school in the UK so, for example, acas right, it's a great organization to know. Is what I'm doing by the law? Is it right or is it wrong? And so I think it's knowing that very close circuit of people. And what I'm trying to say is you're not on your own. There are people around you that can give you the opportunity, the knowledge, the encouragement as well to keep that integrity where it should lie, so that you don't cross the red line, because those people actually would tell you if you cross the red line. So I think it's important to ask them and to say to them if at any point you feel that in the conversation it sounds like I'm crossing that red line and I'm losing that moral integrity, I need to know.
Speaker 3:I've always said to my teams you need to be impeccable, and one of the best training that I did with my senior team when I was a head, I always wanted every record to be done top 1%. So everything we were recording on the system about students or whoever meeting with parents, I always wanted those to be very precise, accurate, because we need to be fair to people and represent what was happening in the conversation. And I remember that at the beginning I used to drive my SLT completely nuts right, because they were like you know, it's really difficult to uh, because I would send back to them and say it's not enough, there, we're missing that and um, and there was a point where I thought, okay, clearly I need to go in a different way to show them about integrity and that red line. I took them with me to watch an employment tribunal and to observe the questions that were asked right in the court throughout the process. And when we left they said to me now we understand, nadine, why you are so much, you know, wanting us to do things in an impeccable way.
Speaker 3:And it's because of that integrity, because you know that you've done your job well and you know that you're in the right and that you're not in the wrong. And, yeah, I think that if you know all of that, then I think that you can. And if you know the circuit of people around you that you can ask for and there are right In every school those people exist, everybody has that, not just me. I think that you can keep that integrity absolutely in touch, like it's there, it's discipline, and you have to be rigorous as well, because it's uh, you know, sometimes there is that little voice in you as a leader. I work with leaders who are angry at times because you know what's happening in schools, right, and it's just no, you cannot say that, no, you cannot behave like that, right, it's? How do you keep that the being impeccable, um, going, even if, deep down, you think there is what I would like to tell you. But no, you can't.
Speaker 2:You have to do things the best you can, in the best possible way by the law yes, I gotta ask you this because it's something that I know that you've done a lot of work on what, what strategies? Maybe one strategy, two strategy can you offer leaders on how to handle difficult conversations?
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm excited. How many hours do you have? I need one or two strategies. My first advice would be get the fact right before you go into a conversation with anybody, and note that I've removed the word difficult, right, because difficult is an assumption. I think people make them difficult because they put the word difficult in it. At the end of the day, every conversation has a cost a financial cost, but also psychological cost at different levels. So get the fact right before you go into a conversation with anybody. I think that would be my first advice with anybody. I think that would be my first advice.
Speaker 3:And my second advice would be to listen to what people have to say in that conversation and really to process and to take notes on what they are saying, because actually sometimes in conversation we just want to respond. You know, you say that, I say that. Then it becomes a tennis match and as soon as we act like that, we are antagonizing the other party and I think that's not the right way to go. I think that it is better to have a conversation, to listen to people and might say okay, I'm going to go away and I'm going to think about all of that. I might need to come back to you if the issue can be resolved during that conversation, to not be afraid of pausing, asking for a pause, to not be afraid of reconvening at a different time Again to be able to make the best decision.
Speaker 3:So I'm not saying okay, I am not saying that every conversation needs to be reconvening the conversation. I think that every conversation has a beginning, a middle and an end. My third advice would be make sure that you know about that timeline At what point does that conversation become critical and make sure that you end that conversation well with the person, because it's key to have a sequence in that conversation so that people are clear about what you are expecting from them following that conversation. I've given you a lot of advice here, more than one or two, I realize that.
Speaker 2:Does that help? It does help. It does help. And I love the fact that you say at the start get your facts right. Because sometimes, when we go into these conversations be they difficult or not, however you might want to term them, that really is dependent on the scenario you might find that the facts that you think you have are not the facts, and so when you sit down with the other party, it becomes clear that what you received from maybe your SLT or other colleagues were opinions. So, before you sit down with said person, make sure you have facts on the table, and I think that is if you guys were listening or watching this podcast walk away with nothing else from this. Walk away with that. Before you sit down to have conversations as leaders, get your facts right. I love that. I think that's going to be a key takeaway. Probably we'll use that as a clip when we're promoting the podcast.
Speaker 2:Nadine, quick question again you talk about the fact that when you were a head, your kids told you you looked 10 years older in that time. Because of all the work Head teachers, school leaders, principals they're under enormous stress. There's a lot of variables, a lot of asks for them. How do they preserve themselves? How do they ensure that they don't age 10 years ahead of their time?
Speaker 3:What would you?
Speaker 2:tell them.
Speaker 3:I mean. First of all, I think that we've got to recognize the great work that teachers and principals are doing around the world. I think it's easy to fall in the trap to work 24 hours a day, particularly when I meet so many passionate people who just give it all and they don't look at the time. I guess what has helped me was to have a coach, a mentor, a partner to whom I could speak to. I think that has helped me tremendously because taking time for yourself to take you out of the job and take time for yourself to think about yourself, to reflect on yourself, and often, if I'm in Dubai or wherever I am in the world, I remember and I'm not going to say whom, but I think that person will recognize who they are when I say that I remember having a conversation, coaching, mentoring, guiding, advising, partnering, whatever it is. Having one of those conversations with a leader I was working with two years ago in the office, with a leader I was working with two years ago in the office. And an office is like a box right, and how on earth can you get better psychologically, your energy, you know, getting your energy back when you're just in your office, even with nice windows and nicely decorated. And I said, shall we go on the running pitch outside? And we had that conversation walking around where students run in the fresh air, walking side by side, and that was very powerful. Equally, I did that with a leader in the corporate world in Paris where I said to that person we don't need to stay in the building, we can go out if you want to, and I believe a lot in the walking conversation. You're side by side, so you're not facing people, you're scanning the horizon. I think it's quite nice to be inspired. Being outside is nice, fresh air, and I think it's also about understanding when you're at your best. So a leader who is tired you know we all have a body clock right. I know I'm better in the morning, I know that at half past three I dip, I know my body clock. So knowing your body clock so that you organize, if you can, your agenda according to what also works for you.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes as head of principle, we forget ourselves and we tend to put people first and parents first and all stakeholders. But I think if you're not in top form at all level, I think you won't make the best decision and at times you may need to be what people call a little bit selfish. I don't think it's selfish. I think you need to invest in yourself and you need to have the courage to say okay, I'm going to be investing in myself and that's my time. I'm going to say something that might be controversial Okay, I don't believe in the policy of I've got an open door policy.
Speaker 3:I don't believe in that. I think that, yeah, at time it's good to have an open door and people know that you have an open door at certain time, but at other, I think that you, yeah, at time it's good to have an open door and people know that you have an open door at a certain time, but at other, I think that you do need to close that door. I'm also very aware that some principles they you know. Visibility is important, so, yeah, I need to be out there, I need to be seen Right, it's important that people see me and I need to see the school. Yeah, but I think that also, you're a leader, at time, you also need to be back to talking to the right people, so it's a balance.
Speaker 3:I often do an audit of the diary of a leader, so we share screen or I sit by them, we look at the uh, at their diary and you think when on earth do you have lunch? When on earth do you have time to go to you know wherever you need to be? And I think that we must never forget ourselves. When we are leader, we are giving a lot. I used to say to my staff at times I feel I'm on blood transfusion. Right, I give right, there's nothing left in me, but we need to replenish.
Speaker 3:It's not because we are leader that we don't need to replenish. We need to replenish. We need to get that energy back in ourselves so that we can give again out there and do the best we can. I think that's really important. So be courageous to say no, no to a number of things that can't happen. And this is where delegation works at its best. Right, because in an ideal world and I know that it's happening you've got many schools with the right teams out there and people are thirsty to lead and to do what you could have done as a leader, but they're very happy to take that on. And it's saying yes to that and saying no to other things, to look after yourself and to not lose yourself in what we think is our passion, because actually a passion can take you down, can bring you down, because there's so much energy that we have.
Speaker 2:No, I totally agree. I totally agree. The theme for the upcoming Middle East School Leadership Conference is leading forward, building a leadership legacy. It came out of a conversation you and I had over sushi in the Fairmont in Abu Dhabi, and so I'm itching to ask you this question In a hundred years, when the book of Nadine Pory is written, what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker 3:I think there is what I want and there is what will happen right, and there is what Nadine Pory is written. What do you want your legacy to be? I think there is what I want and there is what will happen right, and there is what my hopes right. I hope that I will have made people think in a different way. I hope that I will have challenged people enough to disrupt their thinking. Are you bold enough to do this? I hope that I would have been an architect where we have co-constructed and where you continue to co-construct with people. You cannot do things on your own right. I hope that I would have been a catalyst and I hope that I would have started planting the seeds. That keeps growing.
Speaker 3:And I've always used the analogy of a plane. You know the we need to check in and the right people need to be in the right seat on the plane. And that fantastic journey, that visionary. Where do you take that plane? What's your destination? The journey is as important as the destination and I hope that I will have left that with people, that it's not just about the destination, that it's also about the journey. So I'm very ambitious to think that this will be my legacy, but I just hope that it is.
Speaker 3:And, by the way, I do want to write a book. I've got a few ideas of what it could be on maybe a chapter on different topics, but I do want to write a book and I think one of the questions that I really would want to leave people with is you know, what opportunities are you creating for people to touch base with the future? Because we talk a lot about the past. I mean, today we've talked about the past, but it's also about the future, and I think some people do it very well on LinkedIn, talking about, yeah, the future, what will happen, and not just dwelling on the past. It's a fine balance. So the word balance is, I hope, will be part of my legacy Keep looking ahead. Yeah, it's a lot right. I mean, no, keep looking ahead.
Speaker 2:No, listen, we all have to think about that, and I think one of the things that I really loved from our conversation then was when we talked about how are we preparing the next generation of leaders, the next crop of leaders? So that is my final question on the podcast to you is what can us current leaders do to really prepare the next batch of leaders? They're going to replace us, but we should be courageous enough to prepare them. What should we do?
Speaker 3:I think I've answered a little bit in that I think we should be an architect, so co-create with them and let them, you know, empower them and enable them. I think that's really important. But I think one of the things that I would do if I was a principal right now which is something that I did myself is I spent a week in America when I was ahead. My daughter was doing an internship at Cisco, silicon Valley, and I spent a week in the industry world looking at how it was working for them, and I remember having a conversation the industry world, looking at how it was working for them and I remember having a conversation with one of the top guys actually on competitions, right, how do you deal with competitions and how do you analyze your competitors and it was one of the conversations not just focusing on your own industry the world of education. Yeah, we're all educators, we all know each other. I mean it's a small world in a way, right, but looking at other industries that are totally different from you and actually understanding, visiting, borrowing a day here, a day there, a week there.
Speaker 3:I would love to you know Jeff Bessus, I'd love to have a conversation with him, I'd love that, to see what he does in his meeting, with no PowerPoint presentation. You read the document when you arrive in the meeting. So just tapping into those famous people who have succeeded, without necessarily having lots of qualifications, and also tapping into their brain. So the answer is it's not just about npqh and all of that. Yeah, fine, okay, but it's also about look bigger, think bigger. Look around the world, not just where you are geographically right, but look around the world, different industries, and what is it that you can learn from them that you could draw on to in your leadership. I think that's what I would do, but that's just me, yeah no problem.
Speaker 2:Where can people reach you, nadine? Let's say a school wants to talk to you about becoming their thinking partner, just to help them to unravel some of the things, or they just want to connect with you. Where can people connect with you?
Speaker 3:I'm on LinkedIn. I publish on LinkedIn every day, so they can send me a message on LinkedIn, or they can visit my website NadineParrycom. They can email me. So it's Nparry at NadineParrycom. Yeah, and when I'm in Dubai or Bangkok or wherever we can go for coffee.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds great. I'll put all those in the show notes so that you can connect with Nadine and learn more, but thank you for being on the podcast, nadine.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you to you, Lisa, for inviting me and for making we went from one conversation in Abu Dhabi actually to being here today, and I just really would like to thank you and for everything that you do actually in the world of education. I mean, every day you're out there on LinkedIn, you know, interviewing people, going into schools and talking to a lot of educators around the world. I think you're doing a fab job, lisa. Keep going. We need you. The world needs a Lisa.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you so much, thank you guys, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle East podcast. Visit our website teachmiddleeastcom and follow us on social media. The links are in the show notes.
