Teach Middle East Podcast
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Teach Middle East Podcast
Embracing Neurodiversity Among Staff In Education With Shona OCallaghan
This episode explores the often-silent experiences of neurodiverse teachers and the barriers they face within the education system. Shona OCallaghan shares her journey, illustrating the importance of inclusivity for both staff and students and the need for greater awareness about neurodiversity in schools.
• Discussion on the hidden neurodiversity among teachers
• Shauna's personal journey with dyslexia, ADHD, and dyscalculia
• The impact of neurodiversity on teaching practices
• The necessity of supportive school cultures and leadership
• The role of parents in advocating for neurodiversity
• Insights on the strengths neurodiverse educators bring to the classroom
• The holistic benefits of inclusivity for students and teachers
• Steps schools can take to foster true inclusion
• Shauna's vision for a more accepting educational system
Connect with Shona here: Shona@empoweringcreativeminds.com and admin@empoweringcreativeminds.com
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
Connect with Leisa Grace:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace
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You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace coming back with another episode of the Teach Middle East podcast. Welcome back if you are a returning listener and welcome if you are brand new. I am delighted to have Shauna O'Callaghan on the podcast with me and we are talking something that has piqued my interest. So a little backstory, my listeners. So I met Shauna at Guess and we were talking about what she does and she does lots of stuff, and she'll tell you what she does in a minute. Talking about what she does, and she does lots of stuff, and she'll tell you what she does in a minute.
Speaker 2:But she said something that piqued my interest. She said she used to teach and she is neurodiverse. So I was like, because I hardly hear teachers describe themselves as neurodiverse. They always describe their students and they always talk about inclusivity and all of that. So that made me curious as to where are our neurodiverse teachers? What are we doing for them? Are they able to even admit their own neurodivergence? And so I wanted to have Shona, and so I wanted to have Shona shed some more light on that topic. We're going to go deep. Guys. Sit back, relax, get your cup of coffee, your tea. This one is for all of us. Welcome to the podcast, shona.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much. I am very pleased to be here and thank you so much for you know, for listening to me when I was speaking about neurodiversity within education, and not just thinking about the students but also thinking about the teachers.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know what piqued my interest In school? We know that there are students who are neurodivergent, but where do they go when they leave school? Who do they become? I'm sure a percentage of them become teachers.
Speaker 2:And so I then started to think about my own career and I thought I don't remember any of my colleagues in all the schools I've worked, including the schools I've led, who have come to me and said you know, I am not neurotypical as people put it, but I have this difference that should be highlighted, or I have this that needs accommodation. No one I mean zero, and everybody that we as colleagues in the staff room looked at as being a little bit different. We would not, and this is full disclosure. I'm not right to have done it, but this is the truth. We normally say something like oh, she's a bit off off. No, that's not even what we should do, but we've done it. And if you're not honest enough to say where you're falling short, then you're not honest, and that's what we've done. And so tell me what qualifies you to talk about this topic oh, okay, where do I start?
Speaker 3:well, as you know, I'm an educational consultant. I founded Empowering Creative Minds in order to eradicate the whole taboo around neurodiversity, and that obviously starts with the students, but also for the teachers. I'm a dyslexia specialist teacher myself and doing a PhD and all those other things in order to deepen my knowledge. But more than any of that that makes me qualified is that I am neurodiverse. I am dyslexic, adhd and dyscalculia all three and I am a former teacher.
Speaker 3:I was a teacher for many years and, like yourself, in management and led, and so it was the experience that I had in education that really I suppose it grated on me for a long time that I couldn't or I felt I couldn't talk about my neurodiversity, that I couldn't share that with the kids, and so really I came out. I like to say I came out as being diverse and neurodiverse and telling everyone only in the last few years, and that's having more experience now and more confidence in myself, the confidence that I gained back after losing it once I became a teacher actually, but that's a longer story to tell. No dive in, dive in. Why did you lose your confidence as a teacher? Actually? But that's a longer story to tell.
Speaker 2:No. Dive in. Dive in. Why did you lose your confidence as a teacher?
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 3:So when I went to university. So I spent without going into too many details I spent most of my childhood not really understanding why I was the only one that couldn't keep up with everyone else, I couldn't go at the same pace, why I was the one who was still sitting at the kitchen table when everyone else had finished their homework. You know brother and sister laughing at me like you're still there, you know. And that was part of growing up and not understanding why was it that I couldn't understand the times tables, that they just wouldn't stick the same with spelling, the same with I could read and this is very big, you know. People seem to think that you know that if you're dyslexic you can't read, and that's not true. That's not true. You know we can read. We just might read at a slower pace. So I spent a long time really not liking myself very much as a child and really not feeling comfortable within my own skin and that's the truth and not knowing why I felt different to everyone else and I suppose that difference didn't get picked up on in the 1980s you know that's showing my age there, but it wasn't that well known at that stage and I suppose I wasn't as as um, as severe or as bad as maybe some other cases may have been, and then also I was a girl, so I was super good at, uh, hiding and masking and pretending everything was okay. But things went on and I got held back a year in primary school, which actually wasn't the best decision. Because I decided then that, well, if you're going to treat me like I'm stupid, then I'm going to act like I'm stupid. And that's the way I felt, and I use that word because that is a word that I applied to myself and it's also a word in which I hear kids in 2024 still using to describe themselves. And that is not, it's not acceptable anymore. But I decided at that stage well, okay, I'm just not going to participate. If that's how you view me, then that's how I'm going to treat my. You know to act. And so I suppose at the time the decision was made, thinking it was the best thing for me, but actually it wasn't the best thing for me, but actually it wasn't the best thing for me.
Speaker 3:And so then I ended up going to secondary school afterwards, in the same secondary school that all my friends had gone to, and so I was a year behind them and you can imagine. That too, meant I just sat back and said I'm just not, I'm not doing anything. And it was one of my English teachers actually thing. And it was one of my English teachers actually. It was my English teacher, mr McKeown, who called me out and gave out to me one day and said to me you have to start putting some effort in, because you're getting the best grades without even putting the effort in. Imagine as a dyslexic person. So that showed that he was looking past the spelling and the punctuation and the grammar and he was looking at the content that was there, which is what we should be doing anyway as teachers.
Speaker 3:So, long story short, I scraped into university and that had been my dream to get to university. You know, I just wanted to go to university, I wanted to be a teacher, I wanted to be like Mr McKeown, I wanted to be that English teacher, because it was him who had made a difference in my life. After the conversation I'd had with him, I started to believe in myself a little bit more, and so I started to work that little bit harder. And then I did get into university, and it was in university in the beginning of my second year that I got called into the office of a particular professor and she just said the exact thing that I had been terrified that anyone was going to say to me, which was you don't belong here. And I was crushed. I was crushed, I broke down. I was trying to explain to her that I was working. She was under the impression I wasn't working hard enough and then she said, when I explained I was working, she said you're not. You know, you don't belong here. Now she made a mistake, so I don't hold it against her. We're all human beings and we can all make mistakes.
Speaker 3:But thankfully, something within me my stubbornness, one of my strengths, of my dyslexia is my perseverance and my determination. And and also, you know, that little spark that Mr McKeown had lit within me inspired me to keep going. And it wasn't long after it was about a week or a week and a half after that, the other professor called me in and I thought, oh no, that's it, this is it, I'm out. And I thought, oh no, that's it, this is it, I'm out, you know. And I was just ready to, you know, just to go, and I explained to him what had happened and what had happened with the other professor and how I felt and and all of those things. And it was at that point that he said to me you know, maybe you should go and get diagnosed for dyslexia. And at first I didn't understand what that meant and I actually thought that that was a bad thing. And it was a friend of mine who encouraged me to go and said no, don't be silly who knew more about it than I did.
Speaker 3:And I went and I got diagnosed and so really, to answer your question, it was then that when I got diagnosed, then that when I got diagnosed, something just clicked and it was the mindset that I had beforehand of I can't or I shouldn't be here, or someone's going to discover me or I'm going to get a tap on the shoulder and tell me that they made an administrative mistake and I wasn't supposed to be here. And I suddenly become really empowered and I owned my dyslexia and I became a student rep for two years and I was really vocal about it and I just it really became a part of my identity and so I went on and I became a teacher and I was so proud of myself because I thought I'm going to get into those classrooms. I'm going to help these kids and I'm going to say, look, if I can do it, you can do it. And then I was told, maybe don't say that. And it was that several comments, and I can't say it was only in one school. It wasn't only in one school, but it was several people in several different, you know superior roles who said it to me and you know, not meaning to do really much damage, but that chips away at your confidence.
Speaker 3:And so then I started having to hide it again. I had to hide my dyslexia again and then I became really conscious of it, especially as an English teacher, and I became the head of English at a very prestigious private British school and I was really burned out, really burned out, trying to overcompensate all the time because I was petrified of making one tiny little mistake in case anyone would discover that I was dyslexic. And that meant in meetings. That meant you know, speaking to colleagues, that meant, you know, with the kids. Obviously it meant over-preparing and over-preparing and over-preparing and burnout. And so I completely lost my confidence in that sense. And now it's only now, later, that I've become really vocal about it again and really own it again that now I'm far more comfortable and feel happier within myself, and I think a lot of teachers would yeah.
Speaker 2:Why are schools asking teachers who are neurodiverse to hide that special part of them?
Speaker 3:Well, they're not supposed to. They're not supposed to because we're supposed to be I mean, we are the people who are leading inclusion. We're supposed to lead from the front. We're supposed to be the ones that are showing the kids especially now in the last few years that we're showing the kids that they have to embrace their neurodiversity and build their self-confidence and their self-esteem and work on their strengths and all of those things.
Speaker 3:But it's not socially acceptable within the education sector to be neurodiverse, which is just irony in itself. But apart from that, it's also it's a bit silly because there are many, many neurodiverse teachers. We just don't know about them officially because they won't say it. And schools are asking teachers. I suppose, or in my experience and I can talk about my own experience and I know from other people who other teachers who have approached me after I've been training in schools, the same that they're not sure whether to talk about it or not. And that really is down to the school and the school is thinking about what are the parents going to say? What are they going to say? Well, that's a good question. It depends on the parents, because if you have parents who are well-educated and who understand neurodiversity, who understand the importance of inclusion, who understand that within the classroom, their kids are possibly the neurodiverse kids, which means that they may also be as well.
Speaker 3:And then also you have kids who are not considered neurodiverse. And I don't like as we discussed one other time I don't like the term neurotypical, because nobody is neurotypical. Our brain is like our thumbprint and so we're all unique. We all learn in different ways and our brains are all influenced in different ways, but within the classroom we're always if parents are aware that. You know, kids working together can really bring a lot to a team. When you have lots of different types of ways of thinking, you know that isn't just within the kids, it has to also be for the teachers. What amazing strengths can neurodiverse teachers bring to the classroom? Or should I say, do bring to the classroom already? Yeah, you know, and one of the reasons that schools will do that is because they're afraid of the parents, and the parents may need education and understanding and knowledge about neurodiversity and to understand how this is not something taboo, it's not something that's, you know, going to go away, it's not something that isn't there already that we have to bring in and accept.
Speaker 2:It's something that is there already, but it is something that we have to accept and become more open to thing that we have to accept and become more open to, and I wonder what the school's part is in creating that education for parents.
Speaker 3:It's a really important part.
Speaker 3:But I think before you start to educate parents, you must educate senior leadership.
Speaker 3:You must have a certain amount of understanding within leadership of why it's beneficial to do this within the culture of the school and also to understand how creating a culture within the school which is truly, truly inclusive, then you will have teachers that will be able to be more open.
Speaker 3:You'll have teachers that will be that will have better well-being, which then trickles down to the students having better well-being. And then when students have better well-being, parents have better well-being, as we all know, as parents also. But when you have directors and senior leadership who are really on board and really creating that culture within the school, and then you teach the kids and the kids quite often teach the parents, let's be honest. They go home and teach the parents Then they're in a better position to be able to work with the community of the school and to bring about true inclusion, where everyone is really accepted for who they are and what needs that they may have, and that that's okay to have some certain needs met and adjusted, yeah, I'm thinking about our context of Middle East schools, especially international private schools, and the facade of perfection that they give out to the public that it will take an actual massive paradigm shift to get them to be able to change the narrative around the school.
Speaker 2:Because when the schools talk about inclusivity, they really aren't talking about the staff. I have to be honest this is just my opinion. They're talking about the provisions they can make for students. What if they could advertise their inclusivity of staff? What would that do?
Speaker 3:If they could well. First of all, I think I think you know what would that do for the kids in the school. I think that's a, that's a a better way to look at it, because we are expecting our kids to, as I say, to embrace their neurodiversity, to understand others' neurodiversity and why they need certain provisions. You know you quite often have kids ask, for example well, why do they have extra time in private I'm speaking about private international schools? Well, why do they have extra time? Well, why do they have this? And you know the answer quite easily. And what I used to say and what I recommend teachers to say is well, why does someone need a pair of glasses? You know, just to level the playing field, and it's the same thing. Ok, so I lost the train of thought. There's my dyslexic moment for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were saying what would that do if schools were to say, in our school we are not only inclusive for students needs, we're inclusive for staff's needs as well. Um, we include neuro diverse staff on purpose on our staff body and we celebrate them. What would that do? And you said that would do wonders for the students. But I think it would do wonders for them because everything is driven by the bottom line here where OK, is it good for profit, is it good for getting student enrollment up? I think it is. If you say you have a diverse staff body.
Speaker 3:Because that's where I was leading, I believe. So that's where I was leading, I believe. If you have students who feel happier in school and understand things better and are more comfortable, then you have parents who are happier. And when you have parents who are happier, then they're telling other parents to you have to bring your kid to my school because they're having a great education, they're so comfortable, they're so happy and they're moving forward and they're sharing strengths. Also, when you look at companies like Google and Microsoft and NASA, who have 50% of their employees who are neurodiverse, you have MI6, 60% of their employees are neurodiverse. Why are these companies looking for neurodiverse people? They're looking for neurodiverse people because of the strengths that they bring to the job. Now, that does not mean that all neurodiverse people can go and get a job at NASA, but it does mean that certain strengths are recognized.
Speaker 3:What strengths are recognized within the education sector? I mean some of the most amazing teachers that I have seen, who take kids out of the classroom, who do the most craziest lessons, and you think, wow, that's amazing and the kids love them. They are usually autistic or dyslexic, they're ADHD. There's something else that they will after a little bit of conversation that they will tell you, especially when you're open with them. And so it's those types of activities and teachers that bring so much to the classroom. And when teachers are able to talk about their neurodiversity and share that with the kids, not only does it help the well-being of the students, it helps the well-being of the teachers. And then you have teacher retention, which means we don't have to keep trying to find new teachers. Think of how much it costs for HR to advertise, to go through interviews, all of those different things, the whole onboarding process. If we were just to retain the teachers we have, wouldn't it be so much better for the school on the bottom line, as you say? So you have many different aspects. You have teachers that would feel comfortable coming to your school because they know that they're going to be accepted for who they are and their needs are going to be met, but they're also going to be able to just breathe and do their job and do it well. And then you also have parents that are going to be telling other parents you've got to get your kids to come to our school because they love it and they're learning from all these different teachers who think in all different ways. You know, not just your classic, and so it's all bringing so much more to the classroom and outside of the classroom as well. So, like I said, there's many different ways that this can really help not just the bottom line, but the whole culture of the school and, yes, it is something that we need to think about how to bring it forward.
Speaker 3:But the uae are leading inclusion at the moment. If anyone can do this, it's the uae. The inclusion policy in the uae at the moment is second to none. It is second to none and there's huge changes being made in the UK, or at least being suggested, being proposed at the moment, which is fantastic, and I spoke about this the other day as well. But I think it's really important for people like the ministers in the UK to look at the UAE and say and in North America, to look at the UAE and say, well, what are they doing and how are they doing this? Because it is second to none. It is completely up to date with all of the most recent research.
Speaker 3:But the one thing that's missing is the teachers. How can we have true inclusion if we don't include the teachers? Because the kids are watching, the kids are looking at the, and you know from being a teacher, as same as I do, that the kids are looking at the teacher and they're thinking what you've just taught me you're autistic, or you're dyslexic, or you're dyspraxic, and they know. Or you're autistic, or you're dyslexic, or you're dyspraxic and they know, or you're ADHD. And so why are you not admitting it then? Why are you not talking about it? But I'm supposed to, so something's missing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, A school listens to this podcast and wants to start the journey of true inclusion, which includes the staff. What do they do? What can they do?
Speaker 3:First of all, they get in touch with Empowering Creative Minds and we help them. Yeah, but that's exactly what they do. But the second of all they must first of all look at sitting down with management, with management. It must start from from, from above. It can't start from the bottom, because there is already a lot of knowledge about inclusion at a classroom level. Now there needs to be more. We need more training and and that's a lot of things that we can provide. But it has to start at the top, because it's at the top that need to change the culture of the school in order to make the environment one which teachers are able to Step forward, be brave and know that their career is not at risk, not going to lose their job, they're not going to be passed over for promotion, they're not going to lose their job, they're not going to be passed over for promotion and they're not going to have criticisms. They're not going to be looked at in a different way or treated differently. They need to create that culture and that starts with education education for slt, for understanding how to build this and make it sustainable over time. Not just a fad, not just a tick box, a CPD session no, it has to be something which is serious and builds through the core and the values of the school, and that must also be incorporated within the policy and have that a policy level. And so inclusion should be within policy as well, but not just for the teachers or not just for the students, sorry for the teachers.
Speaker 3:So that would also look at how are you onboarding your teachers? What does your interview process look like? We worked with a school here in Spain last year about exactly this. In a neurodiverse friendly school, how are you onboarding your teachers? How are you expecting the teachers to to come through an interview process and be open about the neurodiversity if it's not very neurodiverse friendly? And then, of course, you can work on ways to make things accessible within the school, so putting in provisions that everyone has access to. You don't have to be neurodiverse to access them. You can also access them if you're not considered neurodiverse. But I think we all are a little bit neurodiverse in different ways anyway. So that would be some of the ways, but definitely you would start at the top.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my last question, before we talk about how people can connect with you, is what is your hope? Because the work you do is such hard work. You know you're championing something that is not the easiest to champion, so what's your hope?
Speaker 3:that's a really good question. That is a really good question. It's actually, I'd say it's, more than a hope. It's. It's my dream, it's my passion, it is my motivation. What is it that I want to achieve? What is it that I want to see?
Speaker 3:I find I find, when I talk about this, people some different comments, that people say to me and they ask me this question and they say but do you think the world is ready for this? And my answer is well, it doesn't matter if the world is ready or not. We are neurodiverse teachers and we're here Right. So my dream, what I intend to achieve, or at least start the ball rolling for in my lifetime, is that every teacher within a school will be comfortable enough sitting around in a meeting and say you know what I don't want to take the notes, you take the notes.
Speaker 3:I'm dyslexic and when someone watches me writing I get really nervous. Do you mind doing that? Or do you mind if I take the notes on the computer, because it just takes that pressure away from me a little bit? Or where, for example, an autistic teacher, a brilliant autistic teacher, doesn't leave because they can't have very small provisions made for them?
Speaker 3:I want to see schools retaining amazing teachers who are leaving schools in the droves at the moment because they don't have the right provisions. I want to see our kids looking at the teachers and saying, well, if they can do it, I can do it. If she can stand up there and teach, imagine what I can do. You know. So that for me, and more would be, I would love my child to come home from school and say mommy, you know my teacher's dyslexic too. I mean my daughter's well versed in dyslexia because I talk about it all the time. But for her to come home and talk about it and talk about the strengths and talk about it in this way, from about a teacher in the school, that would be very empowering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely a good dream, mission, vision, hope, however you want to describe it. Shauna schools are listening from across the middle east and even beyond. How can they reach you?
Speaker 3:well, they can reach us on our website. We have a wonderfully new website and just been revamped, and that is wwwempoweringcreativemindscom. You can reach me at Shona at empoweringcreativemindscom and also at admin at empoweringcreativemindscom. I can put some of this in these are.
Speaker 2:I will link in the notes so that we can share them as well.
Speaker 3:We also have the phone number as well the work phone number if you need that.
Speaker 2:Superb, superb. Have the phone number as well the work phone number, if you need that. Superb, superb. This is such a great topic and I am so grateful to you for being so open, so vulnerable and sharing on the podcast. I'm sure it's going to be the start of a very interesting conversation around inclusivity in our staff body people not just in our student body, but in our staff body. Thank you for being on the podcast, shona.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle East podcast. Visit our website teachmiddleeastcom and follow us on social media. The links are in the show notes.
