Teach Middle East Podcast
Welcome to the Teach Middle East Podcast, the ultimate audio hub where educators find inspiration, share innovative ideas, and grow together! Brought to you by Moftah Publishing—the minds behind the premier Teach Middle East Magazine—this podcast is your gateway to the latest research-based practices, cutting-edge classroom strategies, and the heartwarming stories of educators from the Middle East and around the globe.
As the only podcast that interviews school leaders from across the Middle East and beyond, we offer unparalleled insights into the challenges and successes that shape educational landscapes in diverse settings. Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating world of education, where every episode promises a treasure trove of insights designed to connect, develop, and empower the brilliant minds shaping our future. Whether you’re seeking fresh perspectives, practical tips, or a dose of inspiration, the Teach Middle East Podcast is your must-listen resource. Tune in and transform the way you teach!
Teach Middle East Podcast
The Hidden Cost of Leadership: Money vs. Fulfilment With Daniel McHugh and Zoubiya Ahmed
Discover the challenges and rewards of school leadership through the personal journey of Daniel Mchugh, a former corporate professional. We delve into topics ranging from the importance of work-life balance to effective delegation and systematic change in educational institutions.
Guest hosted by Zoubiya Ahmed
Connect with Zoubiya at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoubiya/
- Transitioning from corporate to education leadership
- The necessity of taking breaks in a leadership role
- Finding a balance between short-term tasks and long-term goals
- The power of delegation and building future leaders
- Navigating systematic change within schools
- The importance of feedback and creating a supportive environment
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Speaker 2:Hi Dan, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm very well, zuby, delighted to be here.
Speaker 2:Excellent. We're at the Middle East School Leadership Conference and the theme is Building legacy Yep and leading forward fantastic. Please tell me what brought you to school leadership. From my understanding, you're a school leader in a lane yeah what brought you to leadership and then what brought you to this part of the world well, okay, I wasn't always a school leader.
Speaker 1:I initially went into the corporate world and ended up having my own business. But my wife and I talked an awful lot about teaching and how she felt I'd be a great school teacher and school reader. And my mom was a teacher as well. She's always a role model to me. So I made the leap sort of 12 years ago and have looked back since, I suppose getting a bit of a head start, a bit of a leg up. Quite early on in my teaching career, the school leadership team at the school I was at said you should move into leadership, and they gave me that opportunity, and I think that's one thing that I've learned is is to grasp those opportunities when they come your way. How we've ended up here? Well, this is our 11th year in the middle east. We've been in jordan, we've been in bahrain and now in the uae, and we love it. We love the hospitality, we love the variety of things, the music and the nature, of course, up in ala, and that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we're very fortunate, the garden city yeah, yeah, brilliant, I'm just candid question. Yeah, did you feel like you took a financial hit from switching from corporate to education?
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I did take a hit, but I suppose two things. I've been able to set ourselves up quite well in the UK from working very long hours and having my own business. But you do realise that I suppose it was that moment for me. I was early 30s. My wife has just told me that we're expecting our first child and you think money isn't everything and staying up all hours isn't everything and we wanted a better balance of life and school leadership is hard, but I do get some of those holidays in order to go and spend time with my own family that maybe I wouldn't have had so much of if I was still trying to build my own business.
Speaker 2:I think the survival, the nature of the job and I mentioned this earlier but the washing machine of leadership, yeah, we need those pauses between the cycles, otherwise it's actually not possible to sustain school leadership without taking those pauses. And legacy and building other leaders, leaders supporting others is that whole empty cup theory.
Speaker 1:We wouldn't be able to do it without those pauses yeah, you have to, and, for anyone who is a school leader and watching this, just do take view those holidays as a sort of sacrosanct and you have to get time with your family, with your friends. You have to turn the emails off because you'll find that longer term you're working at 80 capacity all of the time but, if you can work at 100 capacity 85 percent of the time, it's a better outcome for everybody.
Speaker 2:It's that Pareto principle.
Speaker 1:I think so yeah excellent.
Speaker 2:so our first question we went through the cards together and selected some of the conversation starter questions, which was a neat feature of this conference and the question we selected was how do you balance? So we were talking about Pareto and being efficient as a leader, but how do you balance short-term pressures with long-term legacy building?
Speaker 1:And the reason I chose it is it's such a deep question to think about. I was just saying earlier in your talk I did that we speak about us being school leaders and leadership is a core aspect of what we do, but the bread and butter of what we do is management, and we manage messes and often we feel like we're firefighting and we're running around on a daily basis trying to deal with the latest thing that comes our way, trying to deal with the latest thing that comes our way.
Speaker 1:It's really important for me to book time away from that and, um, to get out and and be free of the firefighting in order to think what is the direction that I'm looking for the school to go, where do I feel we are on that journey and what are we going to do to push ourselves towards it?
Speaker 1:And an event like this is so good for that, because you get to hear such exciting ideas from other people and leaders in the space from all over the world and you get to speak to vendors as well, and you think, okay, there may be things that we can do, but I think, in terms of legacy specifically, a lot of that requires me to step back and think about those leaders that I am developing and am I giving them the right opportunities as well? So, just recently, there's a couple of members of staff who I think are now ready to step up, to start doing a lot more interviewing and a lot more decision making over the teams that we build within the school, and so casting that type of responsibility, with training and support, over to them allows me to step back, but I know I'm helping to build that legacy because after I've gone they can do that in the same way that I would do, and that's so important. Continuity sure you're recruiting in the same way and hiring the right sort of people for your school yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:if we have the analogy of a pizza production line and you're putting all the toppings and if you're doing every stage of that, yeah, if you're needing the dough and you're putting the toppings and you're doing the baking. We've seen, I've seen enough reality tv shows to know that the teams that don't do it well are the ones who are trying. Where everyone is trying to do all of it, oh yeah. And where there's a clear direction, where the leader is there supporting everybody but coordinating the efforts and the passion and the vision and enabling everyone to do a really strong management of the task, yeah, those are the teams that thrive.
Speaker 1:For sure. And to continue that analogy, you've got pizza toppers waiting, a really strong management of the task. Those are the teams that thrive For sure. And then, to continue that analogy, you've got pizza toppers waiting.
Speaker 1:And I think one of the things that I learned, probably in my first year, few years of leadership within schools I was used to it was my own business, but it was a much smaller team and I was much more hands-on and what I realized is that you have to let go and you have to delegate, and you get to a point, I think early on in your leadership career, where you're a bit uncomfortable about passing things on and you think that you're overloading them. You do give them that work, work. And the way you overcome that potential reservation is to talk with them and say look, I want to give this to you. Do you feel ready for it? Do you feel you have the time for it? Delegation done well is still about two-way communication and making sure that you're in regular contact with that person who's assumed that responsibility. And certainly within our school, I'd like to think that we're developing some phenomenal teachers who I hope will be far better school leaders than I am, because they're starting early and we think we're giving them the right support.
Speaker 2:I think the definition of being effective as a leader. Sometimes what happens is that people get fixated on being perfect rather than effective, and making controlled explosion mistakes is one way leaders can ensure that their teams are developing, but it's controlled like. You can make some mistakes with this. So those are the ones that we can delegate out, but there are some clearly some non-negotiables that need to be up certain standard at all times. But a curriculum initiative or some form of pastoral project, there are some spaces for people to be creative and take ownership. So that's lovely and it's good to hear that you found your delegative spirit.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm glad to apologize to any staff who work with me. Sorry about that.
Speaker 2:Sorry for the micromanaging.
Speaker 1:Likewise sorry for here you go. I've got a great initiative, but I think you'd be great at leading yeah.
Speaker 2:Lovely. So moving on, and it leads quite nicely with what we're talking about what approaches have proven most effective in leading systematic change? And I feel like this is almost an oxymoron systematic and change. Yes, change is messy yeah, it is change is messy, but systematic change is possible it is and you've got three levels.
Speaker 1:Really in a school you have the events.
Speaker 1:Underlying those events are the behavior and the behavior patterns, but it's actually your systems that are the deeper structures within the school and they lead to the behavior that leads to the events.
Speaker 1:So systematic change is hard. It's really hard and yeah, and not just for you as the school leader, because if you're going to get systematic change, everybody needs to be involved in and that can be one of the hardest things. And I think if I was going to give advice about how you start that big systematic change and have confidence it's going to be successful, it's about making sure that everybody is on that bus and so making sure that you find your evangelists and you find your people ready to run the pilot and go and tell staff that is working. And I would also advise just make sure that if you're going to find your evangelist, try and choose some of your bellwether staff, the ones who will say it how it is, the ones who might grumble about certain things and the ones whose initial reaction is change, I don't like it. And if you can bring some of those staff on board and get them championing, then the others around it will say, look, this member of staff is saying it's going to work.
Speaker 2:It can be a bit of a hard sell though. Oh, of course.
Speaker 1:But candor, a bit of time with them, will work.
Speaker 1:And I remember a particular middle leader where I sat down and was very candid and I said I want this to work because I know that the evidence and the research base says it is one of the most effective ways of CPD.
Speaker 1:I know that a lot of staff are going to come to you in the coming weeks.
Speaker 1:They're going to come to you in the corridors and they're going to say what do you think of this? I want to show you that it's working and it's effective and it can be really powerful for us. So let's do that first before there's any danger that you immediately naysay it. And to be fair to this leader, he got on board with it and he moved from grudgingly saying I can see some value in it to actually being one of the most effective instructional coaches that we had in school, of the most effective instructional coaches that we had in school. And so I would say, just to put it in a nutshell make it collaborative, get your evangelical staff on board, but look for those bellwethers, and if you can persuade one or two bellwethers, the rest will come along with it sometimes it's the front loading of the hard work so that the easy work becomes systematic, knowing that you're going to have key voices that can dilute the effectiveness through the way that they interpret or criticize.
Speaker 2:Sometimes those criticisms are valid, but because they're given the news too late about the initiative, it then comes across critical, whereas if those voices are given pre-views of what's to come, sometimes their insights actually benefit because they'll say I don't like this about it, but this might also be a problem. So if we're incorporating them at the ideation stage, pre-implementation, they then enable an implementation that's going to have a higher chance of success compared to the other way around, but it's more work.
Speaker 1:Of course it is, and that front loading is crucial the design, the thought that goes behind it. When we introduce big changes, they're evidence based. That means that we're going to do research. We're going to not just look at the research based body of knowledge, but we're going to survey different stakeholders the students, different groups of teachers, parents and make sure that we're getting an idea of what we think will work in our context, but I think also in change, especially, but in all things.
Speaker 1:If you're a school leader, stifle your ego because you are surrounded by experts. And when you spend six months designing some sort of change program and the first time you introduce it to the middle leaders or the group of staff that might be leading on it and they point out flaws in it, very easy then to say you are being negative about it. Yeah, that's not necessarily the case. It's that they want it to succeed and they're pointing out very good things. So what I found is helpful is, whenever I do have those conversations and they're giving me constructive feedback, never respond to it immediately. I go home, I mull over it because I'm brushing my teeth at night, come back fresh in the morning with a more objective view rather than having risen to or felt it's an affront to you and your plans. So just being patient as well with the feedback that you're getting.
Speaker 2:I think it's another thing that we, when we design something, anything, we have this creator, creative spirit that we've created this masterpiece yes and when we create that, we put the time and hours into it.
Speaker 2:We feel that those hours will somehow be squandered because when we receive the criticism, it means that those hours were not well spent or that someone's questioning your mastery of educational leadership when in actual fact, they're pragmatizing what is a plan, they're playing it out in their mind, at their level, and providing you with key red flags before they come about. So it's really important that leaders, when we get that flare, that emotional flare of response, to just pause in the uncomfortable space of feeling something, yeah, to just stay there composed and allow. Yeah, you do feel like, oh, I've spent so long on it, they weren't, they didn't love it. You feel some sort of irk yeah on it, but then later.
Speaker 2:That's not why you're creating it in the first place. You're not creating it, so your team say I love it. Yeah, you're creating it, so that's effective in the school, yeah, so it's lovely that you've provided that story how often do we tell students failure is your greatest teacher?
Speaker 1:mistakes matter, and as school leaders, we need to apply those same principles too.
Speaker 2:It's not always going to and it's never going to go right immediately absolutely your point that you mentioned earlier about potentially having an a slightly smaller team and then having to open out that. That the way that you lead and delegate. An example comes to mind of where we talked about mistakes just now where, if you're a basketball coach, are you expecting your new recruit who's got the potential to be your star player? Are we expecting them to dunk the basketball every single shot? Yeah, when you first start coaching them or mentoring or leading them? No, and is it that the first time they miss that you tell them you missed?
Speaker 2:yeah no, you're going to say how close they are from getting it in. You're you're that close to getting it in? This was great, your arms were great, your technique, but how about this? So, similarly with a, with a school rollout of an implementation, be like. What are the great points here? Yeah start with those, start from a position of strength and then ask questions about where you feel things could be different. Yeah, could it be that? We is it that. Should it be? Could it be?
Speaker 1:very open-ended questions sometimes stimulate those responses from your team and that's coaching as well, because school staff if any professionals are going to feel a whole lot better after the conversation if they've identified their own errors and how they can improve through some prompting, rather than feeling they've come in like a naughty school child into the head teacher's office or sit down at the couch to be told this was wrong and this was wrong. Nobody wants that. Apply the mantra of asking questions twice as many times as providing answers, and sometimes you do need to be a bit more direct. You've got I'm very fortunate I've got a wonderful group staff around me. They really are fantastic and I can remember sometimes staff come in and say, before you even start, I know I've done this wrong and this wrong and I've got a plan how to solve it and that that's beautiful to see that is actually what you're hoping for, right that they already they've got the self-awareness to say this is what isn't working.
Speaker 2:But I would love your input on this yeah because this is where your expertise, where you're at the strategic level, I need you to come and this is so. Then you're like, okay, I'm ready, tell, need you to come in. So then you're like, okay, I'm ready, tell me what you need me for. And then you feel effective and the relationship grows from it. Because they're an expert in their domain, they need your strategic input and then it can only snowball better.
Speaker 1:Of course, and there's trust there.
Speaker 2:Trust, yeah, there's been trust, there's been an ingredient there Amazing, and I would love to know if you've come across and I know I've been in the situation myself when I was a middle leader. Sometimes we feel like we're we're just thinking, sinking in data, thinking in people wanting all different things from you. Sometimes the emotional labor of having to deal with difficult issues on a human level with some of the students and families can get to you. Yeah, and then you've got your personal life going on around all the school stuff. What would be your message of support or what would be your message of perseverance for any school leader, middle leader aspiring, who maybe is thinking this isn't for me anymore?
Speaker 1:That's a really good question, given what we're hearing about exoduses from certain countries in the teaching profession. It is hard. Everybody involved in education is emotionally invested teachers, parents, students and that just ratchets up the stress levels a little bit more. But I would always go back to just that, the basics, that it is a job. Yes, I understand it's a career and a vocation, but it is a job and your family is what is most important.
Speaker 1:And I've had some really tough days in the office over the past few years for a variety of reasons and I actually find it's very helpful on those days to not try and continue to work into the evening but to say 4 30 pm is my cut off and now I'm going home and the family and I we're going for a walk, we're going for a meal, we're going to have a board game. And just remember why you're doing it, because I'm doing it for my love of fashion and I'm doing it for the students in my care. But I'm also doing it to the three most important people in my life my wife and my two children and if you can get time with them when times are tough, it's a phenomenal release.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's a recharge unlike any other, yeah, yeah um, and in those moments I'm asking you this because you're someone who, clearly, as much as money, is a stepping stone to all the things that we need in life. You've made choices, from what you've explained, where money is not the main focus. How might you, what would be your message for principals or school leaders who feel like, yeah, I'm earning, but I'm just, I'm not happy anymore?
Speaker 1:I think, step back and you know we're talking about leading forward. Yeah, we might contextualize that as leading your school, leading your staff, leading your student body're talking about leading forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We might contextualize that as leading your school, leading your staff, leading your student body.
Speaker 2:But what about?
Speaker 1:leading you.
Speaker 2:Leading yourself.
Speaker 1:What about that stepping back to assess what's important in your life? In general, people don't leave professions due to the money. They don't leave professions because they feel that the entire industry is wrong. They most often leave because of managers or their particular employers, and so I would always say just take time to think about what it is that's causing that pressure?
Speaker 2:Is it the?
Speaker 1:profession, or is it actually that maybe a change of sea, a new country, a new employer, that might be the best thing? And I would say that is probably just so crucial to not make that knee-jerk reaction that it is education that's the problem, because there are also phenomenal days in the office as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I would also say that when you are a principal, sometimes we are tunnel vision on the ladder, that you start with a teacher, then a deputy head, and then a head, then a principal, and you think, okay, I'm gonna become an executive head. And then then where? Yeah, I know from my own experience that there are so many careers that have the same impact on children. It might be not just one school, might be multiple schools. So there are many avenues that can be explored that are beyond leading one school. There are advisory roles, coaching roles. There's all sorts that can be done if that's your passion.
Speaker 2:Well, you're a very good example, yeah um, it's, it's lovely to speak to you. Rapid, rapid fire. Yeah, three words that describe your leadership legacy that you hope to leave. Okay, it can be adjectives or phrases.
Speaker 1:Culture.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Kindness and candor.
Speaker 2:Candor Culture, kindness and candor, they're all Cs. I'm alliterative and I didn't know it, but three seeds. Now, kindness is with a k, it was a literative. Yeah, sorry, I nearly. Yeah, alliteratively wonderful there, uh, two c's and a k um.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for your time. I've really enjoyed speaking to you and hearing your can your candid reflections on moving from the corporate world to education, moving from being a bit more of a kind of a leader who looks after everyone to being a bit more delegative and looking after on a wider scale and giving people empowerment. Thank you so much for your time delighted to be here. Thank you thanks a lot.
