Teach Middle East Podcast
Welcome to the Teach Middle East Podcast, the ultimate audio hub where educators find inspiration, share innovative ideas, and grow together! Brought to you by Moftah Publishing—the minds behind the premier Teach Middle East Magazine—this podcast is your gateway to the latest research-based practices, cutting-edge classroom strategies, and the heartwarming stories of educators from the Middle East and around the globe.
As the only podcast that interviews school leaders from across the Middle East and beyond, we offer unparalleled insights into the challenges and successes that shape educational landscapes in diverse settings. Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating world of education, where every episode promises a treasure trove of insights designed to connect, develop, and empower the brilliant minds shaping our future. Whether you’re seeking fresh perspectives, practical tips, or a dose of inspiration, the Teach Middle East Podcast is your must-listen resource. Tune in and transform the way you teach!
Teach Middle East Podcast
Why Your Moral Compass Matters More Than School Politics With Evelyn Forde MBE and Zoubiya Ahmed at MESLC2025
Leadership in education requires vision, authentic relationships, and an unwavering focus on serving children above all else.
• Scan your school to identify talent and tap potential leaders on the shoulder
• Maintain authentic leadership while balancing accountability and relationships
• Lead with grace and empathy even when delivering difficult messages
• Build resilience through supportive networks and keeping your eye on long-term goals
• Return consistently to your school's vision and values when managing stakeholder demands
• Know which battles are worth fighting and where your ethical "red lines" are
• Recognize when it's time to step back from headship without abandoning your impact on education
• Use your wisdom and experience to influence education more broadly after direct leadership roles
• Remember that your moral compass matters more than institutional politics
• Always centre children in your decision-making—"We wouldn't have jobs if it wasn't for them"
If you're looking to develop your leadership capacity, focus on building relationships, clarify your personal and professional goals, and remember why we're all here—to provide the best possible future for the children in our care.
Guest hosted by Zoubiya Ahmed
Connect with Zoubiya at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoubiya/
Connect with Evelyn Forde here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evelyn-forde-mbe-6a607218/
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
Connect with Leisa Grace:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leisagrace/
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.
Speaker 2:Hi, how are you today? I'm good, I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you, it was a pleasure to be in the audience of your keynote at the Middle East School Leadership Conference today. How have you found your day so far?
Speaker 2:Do you know what I found it really energising? There's a real buzz in the room and my keynote was followed by Schoolbox and giving me a non-perspective around relationships and parents, and I just think, yeah, there's a real broad church here, so I just think it's amazing brilliant and in terms of your illustrious career in education.
Speaker 1:Before we move on to the question that we talked about vision and clarity and stakeholders, yeah, what is a message that you would like future school leaders to hear?
Speaker 2:yeah, great question. Do you know what I think? Because of my own experience, I'm really, I would really like school leaders just and I mentioned it in my keynote tap talent on the shoulder. I want them to scan the horizon of their schools. I want them to scan the horizon of their schools. I want them to look and see who's just under the parapet but has got amazing potential. And I say that because we're also in a recruitment and retention crisis and if we're not investing in our staff, we could lose them. And I'm sure there are some real gems in our schools. And so I encourage small leaders to go back to scan the horizons, see who's there, elevate them, promote them, encourage them. And my theme was you cannot be what you cannot see. So let's do it.
Speaker 1:Really useful advice there and I really, when I was sitting in the audience listening to you talk, I was replaying and I mentioned this to you off camera the experiences I've had, which required resilience and sometimes we're not sure if it's going to work out in the end for us, and it's lovely to hear from those who have been recognized that it can work when we have those, that support from leaders who say, yeah, that thank you for that. It just exactly takes us to the next level. Question related to that, before we go on to the golden question, is what do you think some of the reasons are that leaders aren't tapping people on the shoulder. Yeah, what could be some barriers and what can be done about it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think some of the barriers that sometimes and I'm I was guilty of this on occasions as a head and I talk a lot about it now is look up and out and I think, because of the way the schools are accountability, funding, funding and retention we're so busy looking down that we get immersed in the day-to-day what needs to be done that actually we can forget, and so I think that's a barrier that some heads occasionally was guilty in your office and you're not really doing that scanning and I'm big on relationships not doing enough of that relationship building.
Speaker 2:I think that can become an issue, and so I think how we overcome that is and I think when you're in a school and you'll know as a leader it's looking those corridors right, having conversations with the children, having conversations with the children, having conversations with the staff, getting to know people, and I think once you do that, then you'll really understand who is in my school. I mean, I appointed her three years ago but I've never had a conversation with her or him. Make the time. I think investing in relationships I think will go a long way. How about a leader?
Speaker 1:who might be listening to this, watching you and thinking I'm really busy and I don't want to come off disingenuous to my team. We've got so much pressure on us. I've gone into a kind of action planning meeting, performance standards meeting and I've told them they need to do this and this, set timelines, and then, if I switch to the relationship mode, am I going to come off?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get that. I get that. You know what I used to say to my team. I used to say to them, the minute we walk through the school gates you do put your game face on right, because you're a leader, you're staffing the children, you're staffing them. You put your game face on, but you're still you, okay, and it's those. It's those those traits of just being kind, being empathetic, smile and, yes, you know that whole accountability, holding your teams for account standards. You can do it with grace, right, yeah, and you can have those hard messages but leave the person with dignity. So I'm not sure I buy that. I'm busy. I can't switch into that Because I think you can do both. I really do, and I think if you do both, you're more likely to bring your staff with you and routines with you and they'll want to do more with you and for you.
Speaker 1:I'm being the devil's advocate? Self-talk devil's advocate, wait, we tell ourselves exactly, I know. And then we manifest them and I'm your bigger manifestation. We manifest them in that. No, I have to go and do x and y and the question is, do you really have to do that now? Yeah, or could you look at how you can structure?
Speaker 2:exactly yeah, so yeah thank you for that.
Speaker 1:How about and I know I said this is the last one, but I'm just too curious if someone's looking up to you and seeing the three letters after your name, yeah, and thinking that you've been accoladed by the government, the royal family, if someone else wanted to aspire to the same yeah what do you think? How? How must they consider their leadership?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm very honest and I always say it's not going to be easy, regardless of who you are man, woman, whatever it's never easy, but I think sometimes those, those challenges, I think those challenges are quite good for us sometimes. So, yes, if somebody's looking up and thinking, oh, maybe I could become, what does that look like? Is a ton of resilience. You do, and I also think you do need a good network around you and it's made by a cultural mentor, which is great. But I also think people that love you, your friends, your family, that will be there because there will be some setbacks. You need to dig deep and have the resilience you've got. You need all of. So I would say resilience, I would say friends and family, I would say keep your eye on the prize right, because if you really want it, then the art of the possible is what I said earlier the art of the possible is what I said earlier the art of the possible.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, resilience. And people say, oh, everybody's got a bit of resilience, but sometimes you're talking about not that. If we weren't resilient women, we wouldn't be sitting here today, and so I see that as quite powerful actually, and I want young girls to see the power in resilience as well, because you can then become whoever you want to become.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that concept of legacy, I also have two girls and when you mentioned that you have two girls at that time and you said clear, then you had three it really resonated because I do want a world cliche, I don't mind, you can say I'm a cliche lover, but I do want a world where my daughters are facing challenges that aren't the challenges we are facing want them to see, you know possibility. Yeah, where we saw ceilings a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm with you all the way. And so my headship was in a girl's school and my, when I was a head of year I was in a girl's school three daughters, so there was some girl power. I just unashamedly, because it's hard out there for girls and I just think if we are in a position where we can celebrate and elevate, then I think I also wanted to slide into the fact that something you mentioned in your keynote earlier, which was really the accolade and the recognitions come, yeah, but actually you're.
Speaker 1:What you said right at the beginning of your keynote was that you're in service, yeah, of children. Yeah, and that is. We say it and it's on the website, and it's on this, and it's said in every on the brochure, and it's said in the policy documents and it's said everywhere. Sometimes, something is said to the point where it saturates and it no longer feels relevant. Um, how important was that in the recognitions that you got along the way?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's a really good question. Actually, I always maintain that I wouldn't have got those recognitions if I hadn't been doing everything that I was doing, which is the relationships with the children. It's the outcomes for the children is, regardless of your starting point, I want, and regardless of my starting point, right. I wanted the girls or the children that I taught, or the schools that I led. I wanted them to see and have those opportunities, and so I always hopefully stay true to that service and I do talk about because we wouldn't be in jobs if we didn't have the children, and so for me, it's we are here actually to serve you. I get paid because of you, so the accolades are a bit of a they're nice to have, they're nice to have, they are, and it opens doors. I can have conversations with different people and sometimes people listen. But actually, if you strip all of that back, I signed up to be a teacher, yeah, and I wanted to they say once a teacher, always a teacher exactly, absolutely, yeah, I am gonna.
Speaker 1:I promise to go into this question which is how do we maintain and we mentioned just a minute ago about the fact that teachers and leaders are wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for children and the fact that we are involved in their development across time yeah, in a in an environment that's and I know we've worked with governments as well in an environment that's fee paying and also not not fee paying for profit education, not for profit education. Yeah, with that in mind, I've had in the uae in the past, an affluent student tell me that we pay your wages, but not in a pleasant way. Yeah, now, given the having boards that maybe have demands on school leaders in certain parts of the world that maybe are achievable, but not within the timeframe that they're looking for. This is the context of this question, which is how do you maintain vision clarity while managing diverse stakeholder needs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I don't think it's easy. I think let's just be honest and transparent about that. It's not easy when you've got so many different voices that feel that they need a seat at the table and actually some of them do need a seat at the table but I think that I wish used to go back to the vision and the values of the school. Okay, what are we striving to achieve? And when, let's say, parents send their children to our schools, I would hope it's because of the vision and the values and the education that therefore comes as a result of that, and so I always go back to relationships and I think it's about always be your message. Actually, the reason we're here is so that we can deliver this excellent education for part of our values, what our value sets.
Speaker 2:Because, yes, if we just look at the thing about parents and let's talk thinking parents right, yes, they do want an education, but I would also argue that they would like their son or daughter to be upstanding citizens who can be empathetic, who can be kind, who know how to have rich discussions with diverse stakeholders, and actually, they're getting that in school right and, yes, we'll give you a fantastic education, but all our value sets will be ribboned through that. I just think there has to be a mutual understanding and for governors and trust boards and all the diktat that's coming down, if they want that to happen, if they want their teachers to be well because well-being is super important stay well to show up every day because we job for what they were appointed and so that we can great education value sets. Your sons and daughters, the children in the school, will leave and be fantastic young people that will take their rightful place in the world and will be will be a credit to the school. So I'm not saying it's easy, but I think we can stay true to our value set what we want the future generations to become legacy. What do we want to become?
Speaker 1:they're going to allow us to do our job. It's interesting because it relates to one of the points you mentioned in your keynote, which is to have those professional and personal goals that you identified, that you that are where you are now and where you hope to be. So, if those are strong within you, you've got a stable set of goals that you're trying to achieve within your role and within your career, now and next. Yeah, it means that you will have that kind of sturdy footing by which you'll say, in fact, given that was given that we are focused on serving the children, as per this priority that we agreed on, these are the steps that have to happen, yeah, and these are the steps that can happen in this way, with this potential outcome. Yeah, yeah, all yeah. And we've all sat in those situations where we feel beyond reasonable doubt, yeah, that this is the best course of action. Yeah, and then, if a board feels differently, yeah, you've stated your case. Yeah, you've made them aware what risks are on both sides, and then it's a collective decision making.
Speaker 1:But you've done everything you can, yeah, to stand by what you believe in but sometimes we can't always get the ideal leadership manifested in the way that we hoped because of the push and pull of different stakeholders. Parents might want one vision of what they want. You've got your board or the owner of the school having a different vision based on the number of dirhams in there in the budget. So I think being sensitive to yeah, yeah, how different stakeholders are making decisions and the lens that each stakeholder brings because an accountant or cfo yeah, they're going to be speaking the, yeah, the numbers language, so you need a numbers.
Speaker 2:You do need a numbers story you need a number story and the number story could be around. The outcomes for the young people, okay and yes, outcomes definitely. But that young person is not going to get those outcomes unless they a well, be their teacher during the schools to actually teach them, and actually they have. There's that subtle nuance, isn't there around. Yes, I can write an essay, but what else are you bringing to the essay? And I would even say for your CFO, your accountants, your owners of the schools? They could have owned anything, they could be an accountant in a bank, you could be anywhere. So let's bring it back to who are we here for?
Speaker 1:Children at the serve I always joke and I've probably said this on another video but you're never as a principal, you're a ceo, chief executive, so that actually you're a chief repetition officer. You're a cro a lot because you have to, why, why we're here, what we're here for. And sometimes that repetition makes you the source of that north star energy that people need, because they know that you're going to come over and say what's best for the children and they can almost predict that you're going to come and say that, yeah, that's really interesting in terms of being resilient but being brave. I think there's a bit of courage that comes with being a leader who knows what they know but being flexible in taking everyone with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also think. As leaders, I think it's important to know which battles are worth fighting for which ones. What's your red line in the sack?
Speaker 1:right.
Speaker 2:And just knowing that sometimes boards may make decisions but, like you said, you've explained, you've stood true to your morals, and then there's be like okay, and that one, okay, I'm going to go out and I'll party line, and so on. So, yeah, I think there's something about that as well. I think just there are some that you may not win, but there'll also be your red lines.
Speaker 2:Just making sure Because I think, as a leader, the minute you'll also be your red lines. Yeah, just making sure. Yeah, because I think, as a leader, the minute, you're stepping over your red lines too often.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's how it trends right. When you're checking over time or I'm not comfortable ethically, my moral compass is spinning, yeah, oh my, my, there is. That sense of this doesn't fit with who I am as a human. Exactly like I can't go to sleep at night feeling great, yeah. Or I can't look my daughter in the eye and say I did the right thing here, my husband or whoever it is that you care for that. When you narrate that your professional journey, you have to say it out or write it down yeah, would that be the proudest moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you can't, then I think and some people say that Often people call us back and say I'm in a bit of a bind. It's a real difficult situation, not sure whether to leave. And then we have that conversation your moral compass, where is it going? How much is it spinning? And actually I've walked away from two schools and I just knew that actually it was not good for me. And actually I've walked away from two schools and I just knew that actually it was not good for me and I just thought I can't stay in a school where it's just not working. But that's courage, right, yes, and that's bravery. And I think often for women we carry that kind of because we look at the statistics, right, we look at the statistics of how many female head teachers and so on and so on. We're afraid that if I leave, that, yeah, am I going to get that? And so that resilience, that courage, that love is all I just think is really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also think the role after that role becomes so stressful because if and this has happened to me in my career where I've moved on, yeah, and I then thought I can't have a second move on after a first, because then the common denominator is me and then you feel added pressure. So I think, yes, we can put pressure on ourselves, but we should also be as you said. True, yeah, I'm a good person, I'm doing this for the right reason. Yeah, hopefully, that's true, I'm doing this right. I am serving children, yeah, and there there are boards, organizations, schools, yeah, advisory roles. There's so much more that isn't just leading a school, that where your vision, your passion yeah, can be recognized and come to fruition in other ways that still impact, yeah, children, that's going to be fun. Heads, yeah, do you feel that? Headship or retirement?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah what would you say to that? That's a really great question, because when I stepped back from headship in the summer of 2023 it really was I wanted a gap year, I was a bit tired and daughter off to uni and so on, and I said, you know, I'll just take a break, evelyn. And I did have that worry of because the further you are away from headship, people think that you don't know anything you get rusty, you get rusty and but you know what I've landed on?
Speaker 2:wisdom and I think the work that I do now, whether that's UCL, coaching, leadership, whatever it is, it's because I've got the wisdom and the experience and I personally, I didn't want to step away, I didn't want to retire, I'm not ready to, and I want and I realize you can make a difference. Right, you can make a difference. Just leaving the keynote just now, I spoke with two people. I've got these messages. People just say, oh, you know, that really resonated with me. I'm going to take that back to my school. That's impact, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And so it's, and it's at scale it's at scale, that leader is a leader with 3,000 children, of maybe 150 or maybe 100 families, and that that energy and that goodness, that unique amazingness, is filtering from you to not one school but many schools from here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there is life after headship, is what I say yeah, absolutely, and that's part of the legacy as well, that if you aspire to be ahead and there is a lot of pressure, I remember seeing stepping into a meeting with the board, stepping out and having 254 emails within 70 minutes and even if and then I was calculating even if I spend a minute on each one, I still need a huge amount of time over like nearly four hours just to go through the email just to find out what people want from me, so that and I call it the washing machine school leadership you know that spin cycle when you put one load off you're putting another one and you're just constantly in that washing machine, that almost we become institutionalized by that washing machine, that we think there's nothing else but the washing machine.
Speaker 1:I'm a laundress, like I need to go, and then it's almost like when someone comes to your door you're like, okay, what do they need? Is it colors or white? Do you need 200 degrees or 100? And on. That's a really good analogy. So that washing machine concept I do want I would like to add that to leaders that you don't always have to put yourself through that forever.
Speaker 2:No, you don't, you don't. And I also think there's something about knowing when to stop right, just knowing that you've done a really good job and actually your wisdom, everything that you've got, you can take it to the next yeah, or not grinding yourself into the ground, yeah. And that's when you need to stop, when you just know that. Know what? Because my girls lastly, I just say that so I've got three daughters, as I talk about, and my friends would say, how are the girls? And my immediate response would be, because my school was no girl school I'd say, oh, cocktail, girls are great, we've done this, we've done that, not own children. And then it was like and so, as I was going through headship, like nearly nine years, and I just thought there's a little bit of love that is slightly waning, and I thought now I'm really thinking about my own children growing up and so on. So I think that's really important as well is knowing when I've done a good job, I can move on to something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm smiling because my daughter was three yesterday. I was doing preparing for the conference actually, and it was quite late and it was just before her bedtime and she was saying mommy, can you stop booping? She means she has a laptop, stop booping, I need to say good night to you. And I was like, okay, that's when it's like, yeah, switch mode, just stop, yeah, switch modes, because those moments, yeah, your children 100 precious critical time.
Speaker 1:Critical, we use the professional language, just golden, right, they can't get them back. Yeah, thank you so much talking about golden. It's a lovely place to round off. It's been a pleasure speaking to you and I really feel your heart um in all you do, so thank you for giving me a bit of that today. Thank you, my absolute pleasure.
