Teach Middle East Podcast
Welcome to the Teach Middle East Podcast, the ultimate audio hub where educators find inspiration, share innovative ideas, and grow together! Brought to you by Moftah Publishing—the minds behind the premier Teach Middle East Magazine—this podcast is your gateway to the latest research-based practices, cutting-edge classroom strategies, and the heartwarming stories of educators from the Middle East and around the globe.
As the only podcast that interviews school leaders from across the Middle East and beyond, we offer unparalleled insights into the challenges and successes that shape educational landscapes in diverse settings. Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating world of education, where every episode promises a treasure trove of insights designed to connect, develop, and empower the brilliant minds shaping our future. Whether you’re seeking fresh perspectives, practical tips, or a dose of inspiration, the Teach Middle East Podcast is your must-listen resource. Tune in and transform the way you teach!
Teach Middle East Podcast
Why Great School Leaders Stay: Navigating Career Longevity in Education With Sue Aspinall
What shapes resilient educational leaders? Sue Aspinall's remarkable journey reveals how personal challenges can forge professional strength. Growing up in northern England, Sue watched her widowed mother raise four children with unwavering determination, a powerful example that instilled independence and resilience from an early age. This foundation propelled Sue to become the first woman in her family to pursue higher education, choosing teaching as a career path that promised stability while fulfilling her passion for learning.
Sue's leadership journey spans continents and cultures. From her early teaching days in England's diverse inner-city schools to founding headship in rapidly developing Kuala Lumpur, each experience built upon the last. After valuable mentorship under an executive head in London, Sue led the British School in Tokyo before spending a decade at the British School in the Netherlands. Her leadership philosophy emphasises longevity – staying long enough to embed meaningful change and develop strong succession plans rather than making brief stops at multiple institutions.
Now working as a leadership coach, Sue addresses the critical factors that drive talented leaders from education, including perceived career ceilings, insufficient professional development, challenging workplace relationships, and emotional responses to difficult situations. She draws a thoughtful distinction between coaching and mentoring, emphasising proper qualifications when seeking support. Sue's current focus on ethical leadership particularly resonates in international education, where diverse communities require inclusive environments grounded in clear moral frameworks. Her story demonstrates that great leadership isn't merely about navigating systems, but about creating pathways that enable others to follow, just as her mother once did for her.
Sue's Bio: I have spent 35 years as a teacher, Headteacher and Executive Leader working in Asia, Europe and the UK. In recent years, I became a leadership coach and trainer, an author, speaker and podcast co-host.
I offer personalised coaching and mentoring to leaders working in international settings at all levels. I co-design equitable, evidence-informed and caring leadership development programmes which provide sustainable change in schools.
You can find me on LinkedIn
www.linkedin.com/in/sue-aspinall-1311b284/
via my website:
on the podcast I host with Cazzie Jude
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
Connect with Leisa Grace:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leisagrace/
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, Lisa Grace here welcoming you to the Teach Middle East podcast, with Sue Aspinall as my guest, and today we're talking leadership. We're gaining knowledge via experience. Sue is going to talk to us about her journey, where she's been, what she's done, how she's navigated challenges and really she's going to help us to understand where she is now and some of the things that she's doing. Welcome, Sue.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, lisa, and yeah, I'm just really pleased to be here and I'm just going to talk about, you know, my life and how things have panned out and everybody's journey is different, so mine will come across like that, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Brilliant because we learn from each other's journeys. I see we're matching energies with the black.
Speaker 3:I see that actually? Yeah, it's. It's very hot here in the Netherlands, so the t-shirts are coming out, yeah not as you, but we're creeping towards Dubai's temperatures whereabouts are you in the Netherlands? I'm based in the Hague, so not far from the beach, and it's 26 degrees today, so people are very excited to see the sun.
Speaker 2:Oh, I can imagine 26 in Europe is like absolutely, tell me, you are passionate about women in leadership. You are. You know. Your podcast is about women. Lead because they can and truth is they can. We absolutely can, yeah, um, but take me back to your early years. Where did you grow up and how did you end up on the career trajectory that you are on?
Speaker 3:wow, um, I grew up in the north of England and I think the things that really shaped me was the fact that the biggest thing was that my father died when I was a teenager. So I was brought up by my mom and there was four of us in the family. I was the eldest, four of us in the family I was the eldest. So what came out of that was seeing my mum, as a young widow, being this consistent, dedicated parent, wanting the best for us in situations that you know were really challenging for her in that particular context at that particular time. And what it also taught me was that, you know, she gave me so much independence from a very early age, so that enabled me to kind of stand on my own feet, get on with my life and take the opportunities that were available for me, because I kind of knew if I didn't, if I didn't do it, it wasn't going to happen, and I had to do that to help her in a way as well. And so I was the first woman in my family to do A-levels and to get a degree, and also because of the financial situation in my family, I wanted to get a degree that would get me almost guaranteed work. So teaching came out of that. It was either into the medical profession nursing or something like that or into teaching. Those were kind of the stories that were being told to me and, yeah, I didn't ever question it.
Speaker 3:Actually I went into teaching, absolutely loved it. It was tough teaching in the north of England because the place that I went to were schools in the inner cities of Hull, gould, bradford, leeds, you know. But I just loved the teachers that I met there and was inspired by them and was really supported. So working in really diverse, well-run schools with really great teachers as mentors really set me off on a really important pathway. And what was really interesting was that that later on in her life, my mum who was always, you know, someone very important in my, in my background she went on to do her own A-levels and degree and went on to work full-time. So you know, you never know what the influence is going to be in your family and what's going to open up. So I think that also shaped my thinking and my passion around paving your own pathway, or creating your own pathway, and also opening doors and presenting options so that people coming behind you, at whatever stage in life they're at have that as inspiration really, or an opportunity as inspiration, really, or an opportunity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting because my dad died when I was 19, right um, and I grew my mom who was just the strongest woman in the world like she really embodied strength for me. I remember when my mom passed in 2018 and I remember when they told me that she passed away, I was like I know grief, disbelief is a part of grief but I literally went nah like she couldn't have passed away, like she's super strong. It was not the regular level of denial, it was more of a. It's just not something I can believe. I've never seen her ill. I've never seen her one day be like, oh, I can't get up and get going. Like she was a force the tour, like she really was, and so I think what do you think having that strong feminine role model did for you?
Speaker 3:I I think what my mom presented for me and and actually it was her mother as well, so there was a kind of lineage there um was things happen in life and it's yet it takes time to get over that, because I saw the pain and the shock and the time it took my mum to. You know, I mean for her. She's never come through that time fully, it lives with her all the time, but I saw how she managed through that time, um, but there was always this resilience in her and there was always this determination that we as a family would be okay and she would do everything she possibly could to give us opportunity. So I think what she taught me was was that resilience really, and it's kind of of when I have challenges and upsets in my own life, it's kind of like I look back at those times and think just get over it, sue. You know it puts things in perspective, I think. So that was part of it.
Speaker 3:And there was another side is that, you know, my mum grew up in a community where you didn't show emotion publicly or in front of your children and, um, now when I look back at it, I I think you know like who was there for her. Really, I'm sure she had somebody, but I didn't see it and um, and I wonder whether she had the opportunity to to grieve properly in that time frame and and to be herself and to to speak and cry and ask the questions she wanted to. So what I've kind of learned from that is definitely, I think, as a young person, that closeness, emotional closeness, was maybe not as warm and as close as it was in other families because she was managing in the way she was. So I've learned the importance of that and had to kind of um, really consciously bring it into my own space.
Speaker 2:I get ability, you know, yeah, I get that. So talk to me about your transition from your career in teaching into leadership. Where did you lead? Where did you get your your first foot on the ladder?
Speaker 3:it came um through different jobs that I had in the state sector I was working in in London for a number of years and I had a real um. I always had people around me who invested in my career and supported me into different leadership roles. So in those days it was things like I was musical, so I led music, or I led a year group, or I led on professional development, and that was all prior to then going on to being a deputy. So my first deputy headship was in a school in North London, and so the rest of my leadership journey came actually from deciding to go and work internationally. And I moved to Malaysia with my partner at the time who had got a job there, and became a deputy and then head of a school in Kuala. Lumpur. So that was my first real move into leading in the international sector.
Speaker 2:Malaysia. I was saying what was your time in Malaysia?
Speaker 3:like it was really, really fascinating because I went there in 1995. So this was when Kuala Lumpur was about to absolutely explode in terms of development. So it was this mixture at the time of all sorts of different cultures, and the architecture, um, and the, the, the infrastructure, represented this really mixed community. And then I witnessed this extraordinary shift to being the modern city that it is today. So I became the, the founding head at garden school, which is in the bucket chiara area, and it was the first building to go into bucket chiara and they'd actually knocked down rainforests and cleared the area in order to start the expansion of the city in that area. So to see that change on scale was absolutely phenomenal and the pace of change was incredible.
Speaker 3:I mean, there were times they said I can't believe it, I'm too young to be in the middle of all of this. But in those days, in those situations, you just got on with it and you did your best, best, you worked together with the people that were there and um, a kind of a baptism by fire, I would say, like you know, in it with it, with a skill set that you just hoped was going to help you yeah, yeah, and after Malaysia, keep this, keep going, keep going yeah, after Malaysia I returned to London and I was working in a school near Elscourt with a fantastic executive head, so I had the opportunity to have somebody working with me who really trained me as a leader.
Speaker 3:So I went from this experience in Malaysia to kind of being really supported and helped in growing as a leader and I stayed there for seven years actually in a school that was also offering a lot of support to other schools. So it was a great opportunity to see how, when you work in a school that's come on a long journey and is doing well, how you can do outreach and support other schools. And I loved being in that situation where we worked as a cluster, supporting each other and getting the best we possibly could to students beyond our own school. So that that part of of my career I really remember as being a really rich learning time.
Speaker 3:Um, and then I came to a point where I was restless, wanted to have another international experience and was fortunate to get the primary headship at um, the British school in Tokyo. And, yeah, I just wanted to go somewhere where I didn't know the culture, the language, had no connections, and just immerse myself in that new experience and, um, and it was a great time of growth for that particular school as well. Going from a school that was split onto two sites in rented accommodation it was about to start growing and to see it through to the beginning of where it is now as a school was just very exciting. Of course I was more experienced, so going in at that time, um, I I really sort of felt I knew a bit more about what I was doing yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so what's led you to Amsterdam?
Speaker 3:I came here to um after the the job in tokyo I I um got this position at the british school in the netherlands, um and I have. I was in that position for 10 years and was able to get residency here in the netherlands, so hence why I stayed. I love the country and feel very invested in it as a place, so when I stepped down from my role at the DSN, I decided to stay. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so your work now centres around what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm actually a I kind of say I'm a leadership coach. What I do can talk to do what's going on in their professional life. Sometimes it involves their personal life as well, and I think what they say to me is because I've also been there. We have this common understanding around some of the issues, some of the context, some of the things that come up for them. So they're not having to explain things because I kind of get it and my purpose really is to help them be the best they can be and keep them in the profession as well, so that our schools have those really key leaders moving through into those more senior positions.
Speaker 2:yeah, keep them in the profession. What do you think is driving them out of the profession?
Speaker 3:this, this, the things that are coming up in the conversations are feeling that there's nowhere to go. So I interpret that as possibly there's a mismatch in investment in them and that's particularly in their particular schools. That's particularly in their particular schools. So a lot of what I'm I'm starting to do is support these people in in how to ask for help and where to ask for it and how to spread their profile if it's not happening in their own context in their school. So I think that's one Another thing that I've come across is that when a leader has had a particularly difficult time with the line manager or a colleague close to them and has felt sort of unsupported, unbacked, the emotional response to that sometimes has been I've just got to get out of here.
Speaker 3:So again, what I've been working through with them is strategies to try and manage that emotional reaction, to give different perspectives on what may have happened and then to support with the gained confidence to go back to have a different sort of conversation rather than leave.
Speaker 3:So it's that.
Speaker 3:And then the the other thing is that I didn't realize, but I think I'm probably in a small group in terms of head teachers who stayed for the longer term.
Speaker 3:So my 10 years have been six years, seven years, 10 years. And I just do that because I really love those initial years when you're building a team and you're really starting to drive change and move the school forwards. And then I like to stay to make sure that it's embedded, it's part of the culture, it's part of the way that school does what it does and you've got a succession plan ready to hand that on to the next person. And the more work that I do on the coaching side, the more that I realize that that's not the regular pattern across a lot of the areas globally and there could be some impact on that in the short term and in the long term with regular turnover in those more senior positions. It's more senior positions, so it's kind of working with um colleagues who are in the assistant head, deputy head, head, teacher level to see to to make meaning out of another contract or extending their stay um yeah, who seeks that help?
Speaker 2:is it the school that that seeks you out to help there, or is it the individual themselves, who would be like you know what? I think I need some help here.
Speaker 3:Coach someone to guide me. Who's doing the seeking in in all of paying for it themselves or claiming it back later. So you know, they're coming to me because they've maybe been recommend me or we've worked together in the past, or they've heard or what have you, um, but they're needing somebody outside of context who they feel they can trust and and and to share everything with, in order to try and unpick what is going on for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Should schools be paying for this, especially international private schools?
Speaker 3:I would say yes, I think it's. I mean, I think it's a respectful part of a leader's own personal development. But I think that around that offer needs to be some really careful agreements around confidentiality, around how it's perceived, because I think some of the people I'm coaching have said that it's still perceived as a weakness if you ask for funding for coaching. Why, yeah, it's in individual cases, but it's um and also in their perception, so they're worried about if they go and ask for it, then there might be a perception that they're struggling and that we've seen as a negative.
Speaker 2:so it's kind of in the system still. Yeah, education or international private education is all pinned to some KPI of some sort, and I'm wondering if that's why schools are like nope, we're not paying for coaching for leaders because we don't see an immediate ROI.
Speaker 3:No, I just absolutely agree that that's maybe where it's. If it's coming through from the HR department and you've got colleagues in there who've not necessarily understanding the coaching what it's about, they'll automatically link it to an outcome performance outcome Whereas the organizations that see it as part of personal growth then they're more likely to pay for it and there'd be clear agreements of confidentiality.
Speaker 2:I think in recent years, something I've observed is that there is an increased number of coaches like a plethora. How do you identify a good one?
Speaker 3:The first thing that I would say is that you need to look at the qualifications, because there are people who have just done a short course and then entered coaching.
Speaker 3:So, for example, in my case, I did do a fully registered coaching program and got certified through that school and then became a certified coach with the International Coaching Federation, which is a quality assurance, a global quality assurance, and I think what's really important about that is that anyone who then is looking for a coach, they know that the coach has bought into the ethics of that particular federation, which has bought into the ethics of that particular federation.
Speaker 3:So there's a level of quality assurance there before they start. And then it's also the difference between coaching and mentoring. You know, if you're going for coaching, then that's somebody who's going to absolutely be there for you and is not going to necessarily advise you or guide you. They're going to be asking the questions, they're going to be helping you look at your blind spots, look at different perspectives, um, and really evoke change and growth. Yeah, mentorship is is more something that you know that I do in some of my conversations with people who are, say, head teachers, because I've been there and I've had experience in that field and we can share best solutions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so doesn't it overlap sometimes Like you become a coach and a mentor? Absolute.
Speaker 3:Absolute, yeah, and if I'm coaching, then I will say to the client um, would you like a perspective on that? Would you like some advice on that, so that they know where we're then moving into more touring role?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that happening with. With your experience and your expertise, I can see you know a leader going. What would you do in this situation? What do you suggest I do, or have you got any ideas you could share with me, because, it's you know, it's not unfamiliar territory to you?
Speaker 3:no, and it's also particularly for people who are aspiring to be in in another role that's higher up in terms of seniority. You know they want to explore what that might be like and they may not have a good view of it yet, because they've just not been there or not been able to shadow somebody. So they're wanting to know from you what it's like, what advice you'd give in terms of new training, or you know what they might need to take into account. So in those cases I would say, um well, I can give you some advice from a head teacher's point of view, and I normally put my head teacher hat on so that they know it's it's, it's my experience that's speaking to them, and then they can choose to do what they want with that information yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that brilliant.
Speaker 2:Um one last question. So what are you working on now, apart from your coaching? What else are you doing?
Speaker 3:the the piece of work that I'm really interested in at the moment is around ethical leadership and how we can support people working in the international sector when there are issues starting to come up in the student and parent body that are maybe new or have not been discussed in depth at a leadership level. So, for example, colleagues who are working in Hong Kong they have an increasing number of students coming into their schools from a range of different regions within Asia and there are some views amongst the parents and amongst the student body that are starting to be are equipped with um the knowledge they need and a clear moral stance within that community, and that the senior leaders are talking about those issues as they come up and and hopefully before they come up. So it's like, you know, if our community is changing, what are the things that we now need to be aware about if we're going to keep our communities inclusive and safe for all students and families? So yeah, I'm interested in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ethical leadership is quite a topic that needs more discussion and more visibility. There are some issues as well here in the Middle East around things that are going on outside of school, that's filtering into schools certain conflicts, certain little things that could impact the life at school. And how do school leaders navigate that in an ethical way, creating that space within their school where everyone is valued equally and creating that home where everyone's views are heard, but respectfully absolutely yeah, yeah like that thanks for being on the podcast, so all right.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much for the opportunity. It's really good to speak to you and I. I love what you're doing and the support and help that you do for everybody, and I was looking at what you were doing at your ai summit, so congratulations to you for, and your team for, doing that, so it's much needed. I'm sure people took away a lot from it. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle East podcast. Visit our website teachmiddleeastcom and follow us on social media. The links are in the show notes.
