.png)
Teach Middle East Podcast
Welcome to the Teach Middle East Podcast, the ultimate audio hub where educators find inspiration, share innovative ideas, and grow together! Brought to you by Moftah Publishing—the minds behind the premier Teach Middle East Magazine—this podcast is your gateway to the latest research-based practices, cutting-edge classroom strategies, and the heartwarming stories of educators from the Middle East and around the globe.
As the only podcast that interviews school leaders from across the Middle East and beyond, we offer unparalleled insights into the challenges and successes that shape educational landscapes in diverse settings. Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating world of education, where every episode promises a treasure trove of insights designed to connect, develop, and empower the brilliant minds shaping our future. Whether you’re seeking fresh perspectives, practical tips, or a dose of inspiration, the Teach Middle East Podcast is your must-listen resource. Tune in and transform the way you teach!
Teach Middle East Podcast
What School Leaders Really Need to Know About AI With Ann Palmer
Artificial intelligence is reshaping education, but are school leaders ready to guide this transformation? Veteran educator Ann Palmer, with over 35 years of leadership experience, shares her journey from headteacher to AI advocate, revealing a striking contrast between the UK's cautious approach and the Middle East's enthusiastic embrace of educational technology.
After recognising how time-strapped administrators struggle with strategic tech integration, Palmer wrote her book on AI leadership and uncovers a surprising trend of "covert AI use" amongst UK school leaders who quietly experiment with AI tools but hesitate to discuss them openly due to lingering "cheating" associations.
Palmer's vision for AI in schools extends far beyond typical cheating concerns, encompassing reduced administrative burdens, personalised professional development, efficient data analysis, and cross-curricular integration. What makes this conversation particularly valuable is her balanced perspective - whilst enthusiastic about AI's potential, she remains steadfast that emotional intelligence, problem-solving, and human connection must stay central to education.
"We are leaders, so we lead the developments. We don't let AI lead us," she asserts, offering a framework for thoughtful implementation that keeps humanity at the forefront whilst leveraging technology for more equitable, personalised learning.
Leading with AI - Order Now @ https://amzn.eu/d/2kLEFLS
BIO: Ann Palmer has over 35 years of experience working in education, with schools and universities. She has partnered with schools and other organisations across the UK and internationally and is the founder of the RACE Charter Mark which is an award recognising effective race equality strategies. She has supported sectors outside of education with setting up similar accreditations.
Ann has been a facilitator on a number of professional programmes, is a public speaker and is highly acclaimed in the field of DEI, leadership and Artificial Intelligence. She is a Generative AI Training Advisory Board member in the UK. Ann is a qualified Executive Coach and Team Coach, coaching CEOs and other senior personnel and teams internationally. She is described as "a leader who leads with flair and vision" and is described as "inspirational".
As an entrepreneur, Ann currently holds roles across a number of businesses, including Race Excellence which is a consulting business offering high quality and personalised diversity training and accreditation for corporations and businesses. She is a Founding Fellow with the Chartered
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
Visit our website https://linktr.ee/teachmiddleeast.
Tweet us: https://twitter.com/teachmiddleeast
Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/teachmiddleeast/.
Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
Connect with Leisa Grace:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leisagrace/
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace. Welcome to the Teach Middle East podcast with Anne Palmer today as my guest, all the way from London, my hometown Well, it's not a town, people, it's a big old city and Anne and I are going to be talking about leading schools in the age of AI, and there is no better person to talk about it, because she literally wrote the book about it. So it is my pleasure to welcome Anne Palmer to the podcast, anne welcome.
Speaker 3:Oh, welcome, leisha. Thank you so much for inviting me into your space. I've listened to some of your previous podcasts and you know this is going to be some journey this morning. Ah, thank you.
Speaker 2:So what I always like to do is I like to get the audience to know who I'm talking to, so that they feel comfortable, that I've chosen great people, that I think they might trust me by now. Geez, if you don't trust me by now, people, or if this is your first time listening, trust me, I know what I'm doing. Anne is a real talent and a veteran in the education space. She's done loads of stuff, but I won't tell you what she's done. Why don't I ask her to tell us a little bit about her career, where it started and how she ended up, where she is now writing a book about leading with AI?
Speaker 3:I know that we're going to be time limited on this podcast, so I'm just going to give you a very succinct version. My whole being really has been about leadership and education. I've been in education for over 35 years now, very grounded in the practical aspects but also the strategic aspects. Throughout my career I progressed. I did four headships in total, both at primary school level and at secondary school level. I've always had an interest in international education, doing things like the Erasmus projects, visiting schools abroad, looking at their systems, working with universities abroad. So my perspective really has led me into three areas of work, which include leadership, diversity and inclusion, and artificial intelligence. I'm also a trust board member. I'm a school governor, I'm also a trustee with a charity Lots of other titles come with being in this space, and that includes being a fellow with the Chartered College of Teaching one of the founding fellows, actually and I tend to do a lot of my work around executive coaching.
Speaker 3:We work with international leaders, coach international leaders and principals and execs. In the UK I run a national award for anti-racism with many, many schools that partake of that work, do some keynote speaking every now and then. My drivers at the moment really are that. I often joke with people that I could really be sitting on a beach maybe drinking a pina colada or two at the moment. But, you know, when you think about our mission is, with young people coming through, we have to have the eye on the space that we were born educators, we will always be educators and it's really about leaving a legacy where we have impacted on people's lives. I was really pleased, finally, that you know, in 2022, my work was recognised by Her Majesty the Queen in terms of the impact that it's having. But no, two days are the same. We are still having impact and I'm just really pleased to be involved in the work that you're doing to promote AI, which will be really core and fundamental in the future of our young people.
Speaker 2:Take me back to your headship, your last headship. What were some of your highlights during that role, like things that you remember and smile about.
Speaker 3:You know, the thing that keeps you getting up in the morning with headship is actually focusing on the children. And I came into a really difficult school. I'd been told that it had seven headteachers in quick succession. But you know, I'm fundamentally a South Londoner. Something like that for me is a real leadership challenge. So, you know, we did turn around the school. We were able to increase the numbers. What was you know? Things that kind of stand out to me is really, yes, what the staff say, what the students say, but when you get messages back from the local community saying that school has really changed and then you invite you know it was a secondary school you then invite primary heads, in which we did regularly and they were able to see how their students had come to us and were progressing in a really, really strong way. So, yeah, I think, working in really challenging circumstances and seeing the impact that you can have on children, all children, but particularly those that perhaps come from a disadvantaged background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, South London is an interesting place. How has it changed over the years? I mean, you haven't been in headship for a few years now. How have you seen the changes in recent years? What's been? You haven't been in headship for a few years now. How have you seen the changes in recent years? What's been happening? Because I'm out of touch a bit.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I can look right across the spectrum from what we would maybe call the good old days to right through to now, and there are significant differences. I don't think we do enough of guiding our young people into the profession and I will always call it the profession Mental health, workload, just general well-being. Expectations are always high. We always, as school leaders, set expectations, but there always seems to be another layer on top of that which sort of sees us with suspicion to you know, maybe perhaps of not working hard enough or not thinking big enough.
Speaker 3:I think headteachers and school leaders are under a lot of stress. I think the other thing is the collaborative aspect of the work, in that it's harder these days to collaborate and find the best practice because schools work in silos, they work in what we call multi-academy trusts, so you know what's happening within your trust, whereas in the past you could have worked up and down the country and internationally to really look at best practice and share best practice. Because you know the children that may may be educated in london are not going to be that different to children that are educated in manchester and if we look at them as global citizens, there's no reason why school leaders should not be collaborating up and down the country and forming real, genuine and impactful partnerships.
Speaker 2:That's interesting because somehow I thought collaboration across schools would have increased, but instead you're saying to me that currently it's decreasing because of the proliferation of multi-academy trusts. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3:I think that you know the model, the model I believe is right, where schools, within perhaps a trust, support each other to school peer support, um, but that just assumed that the best practice exists within those five schools, those 10 schools, those 60 schools. Whereas, uh, when you, you know I think it was david hopkins that say so said that international leaders or strong leaders scan the global environment. They look outwards, they face outwards, whereas the model that we have promoted for a period of time now is quite inward looking, you know, inward looking, and then you grab something from the outside but you only use it for yourself as opposed to seeing it as being part of a community. And you know, it has felt like society has become really small mini communities that try to serve themselves.
Speaker 2:I agree. I know the podcast isn't about this, but I'm agreeing with you in that society does start now to feel a little bit more cliquish. You know it's a them and us. We don't want anyone to come in, we want to shut our borders, we want to shut our doors, we no longer want to share. You know, I know there's a balance. You can't let everyone in, but letting no one in or sharing with no one doesn't benefit anyone at all. Let's shift gears, anne. Let's shift gears. You wrote the book why AI? What's going on? I mean, you really did make a nice segue into AI, but from a nice perspective, because you're talking about it from a leadership perspective.
Speaker 3:Why. And what really floated to the top of my thinking is that the analogy is is I don't see myself as being a snorkeler, I see myself as being a deep sea diver. So if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it well, I'm going to immerse myself in it and I'm going to look at all aspects, all corners, of that particular thing that I'm focused on. And this is what happened with artificial intelligence, because you know, leaders and senior leaders, execs and so forth have very little time. They have very little time to stop, to pause, to evaluate, to really do that bigger strategic thinking. And we know AI is on the horizon, we know it's here. It's not just on the horizon, it's here.
Speaker 3:And we know that global companies or institutions are doing some really great things around the world, but I just didn't see that happening in the UK. We do have a fairly archaic system, but one that is leading, hopefully now, through to more innovation. So I just wanted to be that person that took some of the strain, some of the stress, some of the strategic thinking off of our leaders to say, look, there's only so much that you can do. Let me use my 30 odd years of experience as a board member, as an educationalist, as a learner, as a strategic thinker. Let me pull it all together in one area.
Speaker 3:And the other thing, of course, is that when people think about AI and I'm sure that you found this, lisa is that they're either scared of it and they say I'm not going anywhere near it, or they say I just don't have the time. So that fear of AI, it's got to be founded, or unfounded, got to be founded somewhere. So I really wanted to take the pressure off of people so that, if they are fearful, we're going to come out with some home truth where they can say well, you know, it's not as bad as I thought it was. And again, you put that learning ear on it, so that they can apply it to their daily practice, but also to the vision of their schools and the vision of their organisation.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, though, because a lot of the talk that we hear about AI is OK, the students are going to use it to cheat, or how do we get the students to use it properly? How do we get the teachers to use it properly? But the fact is, for it to really take root, we have to get the leaders to use it properly. Whether or not that we have to increase their understanding of AI, how it works, and then also how they can implement it in their role in different areas. Not sure how much is happening around training school leaders to use AI, but how should school leaders integrate AI without losing the essential human skills, if you like, or even use AI to enhance those human skills?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, we can never take AI for granted. We can never assume that the young people should experience our version of schooling, and that's the real, fundamental mistake that we just haven't been able to shift. This is how it happened in my era and this is how it's going to continue to happen. We've got to shake that off and do something a little bit differently, because actually, we want to make life easier for our young people as they grow into adulthood. So I think that school leaders have to think of AI as being essential with a human touch, and what I mean by that is that you prioritize relationships. Think about workload issues, workload work-life balance. We know that AI can automate tasks. So, if we look at it through the staff lens, what can I move to the side to enable my staff to have a better work-life balance? I think that's the starting point.
Speaker 3:I think the other thing is that we know that we can look at AI through a human design, so it's designed to enhance, not to replace humans, and I think that's an essential thing that we need to think about. If we think of it as a tool, it is there not to replace humans, but to enhance what we are doing. I think, also the fact that we talk about ethics. We always talk about ethics with AI, and what we need to do is embed our ethical reflection into our work.
Speaker 3:So the more time that we discuss AI, the more time that we can start to raise how is it impacting on relationships, how is it impacting on trust, how is it impacting on wellbeing? Because what we feed into the system will be what we get out of the system. So we don't want a system built that is not focused on staff, that is not focused on vulnerable students. And the last thing that I would say is that emotional intelligence cannot be captured in AI yet. So we have got to champion that emotional intelligence, ensure that leadership, teaching, pastoral care and all those other things become that lived experience that we can bring into the dialogue. Without that human voice, I don't think that AI would head in the right direction.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Have you met any school leaders that are using ai? I?
Speaker 3:think what I've met are those that are thinking about their ed tech strategy. I've met those that are moving from tech company to tech company and taking bits and pieces that's how I would phrase it. That might be useful for my school. Let's buy it and see how we get on. That might be useful for my school. So I'm seeing people what I say.
Speaker 3:Rather than stepping back and strategically thinking about what are the real needs of their establishment, they're taking bits of tech that they think will work and then they're just throwing that into their school. And obviously there's masses of implications. There's implications around staff understanding, staff training, the impact on the students, parents fundamentally you, you know, in the education of parents. So I mean, I know that I'm not here particularly to give advice, but that whole thing is, if you think about school improvement, we think about it very carefully and we we stage it and we involve staff and we talk to our students in the same way that we are implementing AI. That's essentially what we need to do. Don't run before we can walk, but make sure that you are implementing and thinking about things strategically.
Speaker 2:So, apart from them buying bits of tech and putting it in their schools in their role as leader, do you see, and have you seen any examples of them using it within their role? So not for the school per se, not handing it to maybe the teachers, et cetera, but them themselves using it within their own role?
Speaker 3:it within their own role. I think that and this might sound strange to say, but I'm going to say it there's this very covert AI use. Sometimes people don't want to talk about it because anything associated with that is classed as cheating. You know, they've not had the discussion, they've not had the discussion, they've not had the discussion. They're not going to say I use chat GPT because they associate that with cheating.
Speaker 3:But when I speak to leaders, they might throw it in a conversation, but they don't throw it in as a strength. They throw it in and then they maybe giggle after or laugh afterwards as if people don't know that I'm using it and we can't go on like that, really, you know. So, I think those that are using it and I've got people in my mind to give us examples but people have come back to me and said Anne, you introduced me to this little piece of software or this, whatever. It's life-changing. Whereas I used to spend a whole morning focused on x, it's now taking me 30 minutes and then I can polish things up. So I think number one is uh, leaders are using it.
Speaker 3:Um, some, not a lot, and I think there was a percentage in the, in the, in the one of the educational papers about the percentage that are embracing it. But where they are using it, they are becoming stronger in themselves, but not necessarily. What do we say putting down the ladder for others to climb up it and use AI in the same way. So one of the things I'll say that briefly that we are planning for the autumn term is to offer some hands-on free workshops for teachers. Doesn't matter what level of proficiency you are, but come in and try. You know, don't be scared, you're not cheating, it isn't an exam. It's a way of lessening your workload and getting you to understand that Put yourself in the child's mind, in the young person's mind, the kind of world that they're growing up in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting that you're saying that people are using it covertly, because the mindset here in the Middle East is quite different. People are embracing AI openly a lot more. I think gone are the days when people would be hiding their AI use. People are using it openly and people are experimenting with things. I call them the AI tinkerers. We had a conference in April where we had a couple of hundred close to 300 tinkerers. People are just coming together from schools, heads of innovation, heads of tech, et cetera, and they're just talking openly. Oh, this is what we're trying, this is what's failing, this is what we're doing. We're hoping to do it again next year in April.
Speaker 2:And what I find as well is that there are ways that people are using it that others haven't thought about, and it's only when we share that people go oh, we could do that with it or we can do this with it. It's that tinkering, because it's new, we don't know everything that we need to know about it just yet, because, also, it's changing so rapidly all the time that when you think about, okay, I know this, something else comes up. You know, you don't know about it. What are some things that people? I mean, you've written the book. But but let's say, you're talking to leaders, um, and they're willing to try things. What are some things that they could do with it that will help with their workload?
Speaker 3:when you talk about this embracing of ai, I get a kind of fred astaire tap dancing moment because I think, yeah, I want to be there, I want to see it, I get it and I want you know, because I am very much committed to the education system in the UK and it's interesting because they are having a global AI conference next year, or they are hosting a global AI conference next year or they are hosting a global AI conference next year, which I think is incredibly interesting. But what can they do with it? Okay, they can certainly lessen administrative tasks. They can certainly start to consider how AI is being used for the exam sector, for taking tests, for the market of tests. They can certainly be looking at how to quickly identify areas of development in students' work, particularly around exam papers and things like that. Ai can do that a lot more quickly than adults can. They can be looking into their staffing and personalizing cpd, for example. At the moment we have the models where everybody comes together. The day is filled with the same theme. It doesn't matter what level of proficiency you're at, everybody does the same thing. Cpd will become a lot more personalized. They can be thinking about what does ai mean or look like in the curriculum, uh, the, the old-fashioned let me use that word version is that it sat on its side. You know the, the it teachers are in that room. But actually we moved closer to, and need to move even closer, with the fact that AI should be in every single lesson, and that then moves you to think well, if we are studying in this way, what kinds of professions are our children going to be going into, and how can we prepare them for that? Because we can't be preparing them in the same way that we did, when actually some of the jobs that we looked up to may no longer exist in the form that we have it.
Speaker 3:I think also that school leaders can be working more intensively with parents, coincidentally with parents, and it's a big one, isn't it? Because we open out our schools and become social services and all kinds of things. But that partnership we say there are three in the partnership isn't there. There's the child, the parent and the school. So if the parents are in there, we have a responsibility to be training parents around, uh, the, safeguarding the ethical aspects of ai, the, the, the, the pitfalls that the young people can fall into if they are skimming the social media, uh, platforms, all of those things. You, um, we. We used to do that when safeguarding big safeguarding became the big thing. We used to train our parents on what to look for on phones, on tablets and things like that.
Speaker 3:Again, with ai, I think we're stepping it up, but the speed of which is happening. We just need to do it more quickly. And I think the other the last. I mean, there's loads that schools can do, but the last thing I would mention is that if you're going to leadership down, as I would say, you need to leadership up. So what do your board of governors know? What do your trustees know? They can't. You know they are in overall charge of the vision and direction of the school, but if you fail to add them into that professional development model, then you're capping the potential of where your school could go. And sorry, just one more thing let's link to some really good companies that are doing things for the right reason. They are out there and they can support schools with opening up their vision around AI.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because, as someone who has studied the area the way you have, what do you think are going to be some of the barriers for adoption, like what's going to be some of the barriers for adoption, like what's going to stop all schools from adopting ai, and and what should they be aware of? Like what, some of the pitfalls as well?
Speaker 3:some of the pitfalls. Um, one that leaders would probably home in on first is funding. Funding is quite restricted or feels quite restricted in UK budgets, but I know that's not a global effect, but in the UK particularly, leaders will say well, we want to, but we don't have the money. But what we need to understand is there's a replacement factor, isn't there? You're spending, say, 20k, 20,000, on something when actually, when you pull AI in, it might cost you 5,000 to do something in a slightly different way. So funding and the sort of pushing through funding into schools because we're that will always be something that people talk about. I think another barrier is where do you start the training? And that's the big one, isn't it? If you don't put it as a priority and when I spoke to some people earlier in the year I said look, schools are already putting in place two-year budgets, three-year budgets, and I am assured that AI will not necessarily feature in those budgets so again, they're already setting themselves up to be three years behind because they've not really thought about putting in an investment of some description to to cater for that. Um, people will also find that their own fears become the barrier to what their school will do, because unless you venture into this area and you clearly have I clearly have, and we know people that know but if you think about the average leader and I don't mean average by average, but you know your normal leader where, how are they going to find the real experts?
Speaker 3:And what I'm really pleased about is that I was drafted in to work on the AI working party with the Chartered College of Teaching, chiltern and the DfE, so we've put modules out there to start that training piece, and that means even heads need to train. Even the heads need to train. So provide spaces, provide vulnerable spaces where even heads and execs and CEOs can say look, I'm going to throw my hands up and say I can't show my vulnerability in front of my 200, 300 staff, but what I can do in this space is have the ability to ask the questions that I need to ask. I think the other thing, of course, is that the fear of AI running away and leading the agenda. So what we're going to do, we're just going to ignore it.
Speaker 3:As I said at the very beginning, we are leaders, so we lead the developments. We don't let AI lead us, and heads really need to have an understanding of that I was speaking to a local authority the other day where the schools are working in clusters and they have essentially put AI into those clusters and then they are talking to each other about what they're learning. That is just fabulous. That is another tap dancing moment for me. So the barriers, funding, training conversations, being vulnerable, knowing what kit needs to be in place, I think those would be the main things.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you talk about the fact that some people are so afraid that they just ignore it, but I don't think AI or anything to do with implementing AI can be ignored, given the fact that industry is so far ahead ahead that if we're preparing students to go out in the world of work and industry, then we're really doing them a disservice because they're going to be prepared for something that doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 2:And I think also, parents and the students themselves are now becoming even more aware of the disconnect between school and real life the real life as in work. So let me ask you this final question, because I think when we talk to leaders here in the Middle East about AI, they're a lot more enthusiastic, I would say. I think from our conversation I can see that there is a disparity between what's taking place in the UK and what's happening here, especially in a country like the UAE, where the government has fully embraced AI and are even looking at putting it in the curriculum from early years, all the way up. So what would be the ideal for you in the UK, because I think I can see the divide. What would you consider to be the ideal? That's my last question. What would you want to see happen?
Speaker 3:So the fact that a global conference is taking place next year fills me with a great amount of joy, but in 12 months, there's so much that we could be doing, so much that we can be thinking about and implementing. My ideal would be that AI is integrated in all aspects of the curriculum. In order to do that, there are clear implications around staff training and, as I've already said, that as people implement, they are ensuring that the ethical aspects of the work are being considered, because we aim that no child should fall behind and in current models, ai can assist in a variety of ways special needs, gifted and talented and so forth so we should use that energy and that mission to make sure no child falls behind. What does that mean? In my school and around my implementation, we've also got to understand that AI is not a replacement Things that are still going to be needed, those human things around problem solving and teamwork and communication.
Speaker 3:Much of what we see in the world that is going wrong is not about AI. It's about human interaction and emotional intelligence. So in whichever way we embrace this, I would like to see the fact that we do keep humanity at the forefront of the discussion. We've got to make the links with the right organisations to provide training, but also to provide hands-on experiences of what it really looks like coding clubs, designing, thinking through robotics. Lots of work taking place, exciting work in the uae, in china, and so forth.
Speaker 3:How do we ensure that that is uh possible with the children that we, we all work with? And, I think, underpinning it all, what I really want to see is that there's a possibility here that we can remove any sort of equity disparities, and unless all people of all description engage with the AI developments and improvement and innovation, then it's going to be a very skewed perspective on what AI looks like as it's implemented. So, ensuring that all people stand up to the challenge and say no. I'm really going to learn more about this, because we've got no choice. It's moving, it's happening and everybody just needs to get onto the same page.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. Thank you, Anne. That's a great place to end the podcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle East podcast. Visit our website teachmiddleeastcom and follow us on social media. The links are in the show notes.
