Teach Middle East Podcast

Redesigning Schools For A Faster World with Russell John Cailey

• Teach Middle East • Season 6 • Episode 11

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What happens when school moves from vague ideas about “reimagining” to the nuts and bolts of design? We sit down with Russell John Cailey, founder of Elham Studio and former, to map a practical path from traditional classrooms to living, place-based learning that actually works. From 90s Manchester to Hiroshima, Boston, and Botswana, Russell shares the hard-won lessons that turned curiosity into a curriculum architecture schools can implement now.

We break down a simple but demanding blueprint: start with clear competences and learning objectives, run a transparent design cycle that students can follow, and capture growth through robust portfolios instead of one-shot tests. This triangle turns projects from theatre into craft and helps schools align inquiry to standards across IB, US credit systems, and even the rigid constraints of GCSE and A-level. We also get honest about “kayfabe” in education—when innovation is a performance—and highlight signals that a programme is the real deal, from authentic community partnerships to visible student work.

AI takes centre stage as a tool that should walk beside us and behind us, not in front. Rather than ban it, we explore how to teach the journey to the prompt: scoping problems, structuring prompts, iterating outputs, and deciding what remains human. Paired with portfolios, AI can amplify research, reflection, and agency without outsourcing thinking. 

For listeners in the Middle East, we talk candidly about why the market keeps opening British schools and where micro schools, studio models, and mastery plus PBL could thrive next. Subscribe for more conversations that turn buzzwords into blueprints, and leave a review to tell us which part of the design triangle your school needs most.

Connect with Russell here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/russell-john-cailey/

Learn more about his work here: https://www.elham.world/

Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.

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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson

Connect with Leisa Grace:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/leisagrace

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SPEAKER_00:

You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast. Connecting, developing, and empowering educators.

SPEAKER_01:

Hey everyone, Lisa Grace here from Teach Middle East, welcoming you back to another episode of the podcast. Today I have Russell. He has three names. You know, some people have two names, some people have three. His is Russell John Kylie, and he is the founder of Elham Studios. And he and I are gonna chat it up about redesigning schools for today. He's a thinker like myself. I love thinkers, people who are like, why is it like this? And why does it have to remain this way? Welcome, Russell.

SPEAKER_02:

Great to be here, great to be with you.

SPEAKER_01:

I have watched your work since your days at that, I called it the nomadic school.

SPEAKER_02:

Think Global. Yeah, Think Global School. Think Global.

SPEAKER_01:

I know the name of it, but I used to call it privately the nomadic school. But it started way before then. So I want you to go back back back to your childhood. What was school like for you?

SPEAKER_02:

So I grew up in inner city Manchester, went to pretty working class background, uh Burnage High School. Yeah, and yeah, I mean, school for me, I've thought about this a lot recently as in the work. And school was, and I said this in the TED Talk I did in the TEDx talk over in Shanghai. I I think school was just something you I wouldn't say survived, you just kind of did. You kind of turned up, you went through the motions. And I hate to say this because it I know it lacks the passion that we all want to promote in the work that we do, but I just remember thinking school's just somewhere I went and kind of did. But I loved the sport though. Sport was my thing. I was a cricket player, you know, loved obviously football. So I really enjoyed the sports and the kind of camaraderie of school. A lot of us coming from, you know, not great backgrounds, and um, it was a very diverse school, um, even though it was 90s Manchester. So, you know, it was raw, but it was I still have great friends. You know, I can call on them today. As a 46-year-old man, I can still call up the friends I had, 12, 13, 14. We're all still really close, and many have gone in different directions. But so that's nice. So I think there was a rawness of school back in kind of mid-90s Manchester, and then I kind of did what you expected to do, went on to college, kind of did that, did okay. And then I think I really started to kind of I won't say fall in love, but I got way more inquisitive with learning kind of towards the end of university, and then I kind of really propelled into it, drawing my masters. So it was an odd journey for me. I can't say the school was somewhere that I looked back on particularly fondly, but I also don't look back particularly negatively either. It's pretty bland in terms of looking back at my own school experience.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, what didn't work, you think?

SPEAKER_02:

I think if you go back to kind of 90s Manchester, I mean schools were underfunded, they were cold, they were damp, the facilities weren't great. But like I said, there was a camaraderie, there was a rawness. I think people were doing the best they could. And I think in an environment like that, you pick up on it. You know, when people are trust just trying with very little, even as a teenager, I think you can get to grips with that. And I remember a lot of the teachers being really quite passionate and trying their best. Um it was all boys' school, so challenging in that nature as well. And I think as well, there was there was a I think schools probably had a bit of a PR piece back then. We didn't really think, like if you go on LinkedIn, where you and I operate, you know, quite a lot these days, you know, we're all talking about education, we're all talking about narratives around learning, which is right, which is wrong. I do this, you do that. I don't think there was those professional dialogues back then. And if they were, I certainly wasn't aware of it. And that goes into my early career as well, in kind of mid-2000s when I first trained as a teacher. I don't think there was this kind of vibrant discourse that existed around education. And, you know, I don't remember kind of, you know, like education forums and professional development. I think, you know, our teachers, and even me in the early days, you might have an in-house PD, but they were kind of on the same three things, and that was about it. So I think it was just what didn't work. It was just, it was just there, and you just went along. Um, but I've got to say, I I don't remember it badly. It was just kind of blah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it was just bl.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

There. I get it, I get it. There are parts of my schooling that is similar where I remember it, but I don't remember it with any emotions. It doesn't bring anything like anger or regret, nor does it bring particular joy. It was just I went to school. That's it. I can't primary school for me was just not memorable. I can't remember what that was like. Maybe I was just too young, but then I went to a Church of England boarding school. So that is definitely memorable because all sorts of shenanigans happened there that should not have happened, and so I do remember my high school quite far vividly. I'm not gonna say fondly, to be honest, vividly. There are fond moments, but I would say, you know, it was interesting, put it that way. But talk to me about how you got into education because as somebody who was like about school, how did you end up in a career in education?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I think as I as I went through the back end of my degree, I really fell in love with politics, international relations, history. So that was always there. And I remember, you know, even though my parents weren't university goers, we always would have quite um dynamic conversations in the house. Uh my dad was a really big reader on like history, and there's always like World War II books and history books around the house. So I naturally kind of gravitated to that, and that became discussion with with my father, and we we would talk and we watch you know the documentaries together. So kind of historical books were just the just the round. And then I was a cricket player and doing really well. I won a lot of awards, you know, played with a wonderful team in the Manchester kind of suburbs called Drawsdam. But I was suffering from a kind of repeated knee injury. Um, it was a lot of tendonitis and a lot of pain. And I just remember thinking that probably and he almost just became a little too much. And then so I remember thinking, okay, let's go down this academic route, let's explore it a little more. And I actually wanted to be such kind of silly things you think when you're a 20-year-old or early 20-year-old. I really wanted to be like university and a professor. I don't know why. I have no idea why I wanted to do that. And anyway, I think a light bulb moment happened where I wanted to work with kids who were like me and I wanted to inject something, but I don't think I I would love to sit on your podcast and say it was passion and it was purpose and all this, all the things that I began to build on later in my career, but it wasn't, if I'm honest. I just wanted to help. I think I just wanted to go back, work in kind of the environment, inner city school, and just try and bring to life a little bit of the ecosystem that wasn't brought to life for me. Uh, so I went to a wonderful college called Loretto, Loreto College, middle of Mosside. Again, 90s, you know, you had the you had the gang wars going on. There was a lot of press around Mosside. But it again, it was a great college. That was where I went 16 to 18. It was a great college, again, great camaraderie. And I actually went back as a teacher there. So I did seven years back in inner city Manchester. Again, what I felt was working with young people who kind of uh were like me, you know, and and had great seven great years there. So yeah, that was kind of the story of that. And then teaching for me was really, yeah, that just that simple spark of wanting to help and give back. I can't, it's no more complex than that. I would love it to be, but it's it really isn't.

SPEAKER_01:

No, it doesn't have to be. And and no one wants you to sit up here and make up a story of heroism and all the no, absolutely not. If I think back at how I got into teaching, I studied something obscure at university linguistics, and everybody's like, Yeah, now that you've got that, exactly what do you plan to do with it? And I was like, Yeah, that's a good question. Because in my head, I was gonna join the UN and I was gonna be everything, none of that happened. Um, and so I ended up doing my teacher training to be a languages teacher, which best decision. I had I've had a fantastic career, I cannot complain. So it doesn't have to be a big out-of-the-box story, but you went and did something out of the box. So after you left your um job in Moss Side, you went and did some traveling school thing. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02:

So, yeah, so I was working out in California and I really, throughout my teacher training and my early years as an educator, the the world of international teaching was kind of bizarre to me. I I didn't really know much about it. I kind of knew I don't even think I knew anyone who went to international school, but you know, I kind of went on time, you know, tests, times education supplement every now and again, and then there'd be these jobs. And I I remember it as a teenager always wanting to go to Japan, where I later lived, funnily enough. But but that was really it. And yeah, and then I started working out in California, meeting all these international teachers, and they just started describing their life and the you know, the the a lot of them working in the IB and other programs. And then I was sat in the staff, so I was going out, I was being seconded out in California. I did about five summers out there, wonderful program. And then what happened was in the course of 24 hours, three people put a job in front of me, all unrelated, all didn't really know each other. And it was for Think Global School. And as I said in the TED talk, it was either they really wanted rid of me or they genuinely thought this would be a good moment. And and I remember the school, you know, a few people coming out of the school, and I think it just felt like the right time after seven years. So I applied for the job, had a weird and wonderful application process. And a few months later, with the blessing from the principal at the time, which was important to me, because I felt Loreto, they really had faith in me early on, and I felt I owed them. So it was important that I got the blessing of the principal at the time, and she did, she thought it was a wonderful opportunity. So yeah, I got I got on a plane to Argentina, Buenos Aires, which was our first team term, landed there, had no idea what to expect, and so started 12 years of this adventure, as you put it, um, this nomadic adventure, this nomadic school, starting from scratch almost. It was in existence two years when I got there. They were kind of the growing years, and then we had to really solidify the mission and the vision and get it out to the world because we felt we were building something very special back then. But we had no support. We had no, there was no one else kind of doing education like this, or we didn't know about them if they were. So we were very much outliers when I got there, yeah, 2012. I arrived.

SPEAKER_01:

Where did you guys go? Like, just give me like a whistle stop tour of some of those destinations that Think Global went to. Because I did see, like on it must have been LinkedIn or back then Twitter, not quite sure where I got acquainted with it. And I was fascinated by, of course, I was quite intrigued by types of parents who would sign their child up for a school like that. But what were some of those destinations? Why were they chosen?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we I mean, we we had we had a general rubric. Obviously, safety was one, you know, where could we go that was safe? Where could we go? There was uh an array of modules that the students could do that were were different. Uh, where could we go where we could get speakers? And uh obviously it's very much a place-based in a school. It became I think, well, no, I'd I'd I think it was always a place-based school. I think it became project-based later on, but it was always placed. So where could we go where we could bring to life the local ecosystem? And then affordability, you know, where could we go that wouldn't wipe out the bank account? Where could we find dorms where the kids could sleep? Where could we find studio and classroom space? So there was about there was a matrix of our five things we looked for. And if a place or a city could tick those boxes, then we would seriously consider it. And a host city specialist, could we connect with people on the ground who would then help and support us? No point going somewhere where you just don't connect with anyone local, you know, you just live in a bubble. So, where could we go where actually we had a bit of a network on the ground and they could kind of bed us into the local community? So whistles to stop tour. Um, I probably spent most time over a decade there in India, uh Mumbai, in Japan, Hiroshima. Did six months in Boston because it had different models. So when we're at IB school, it ran on a four-month to kind of new year and then a six month to summer. Then we moved to a three-country model where it was four months to New Year, to Easter, kind of what, three, and then to summer, three. And then we settled on the model that it eventually became, which was seven weeks, seven weeks, seven weeks, and seven weeks, with one week online learning to kind of propel you into a country. So, yeah, India, Japan, uh, Vancouver, Mexico, Buenos Aires, New Zealand, Botswana multiple times, Morocco, um, Oman. Yeah, it was it there was a few Sweden, Greece many times. So I think the three places I probably went back to the most with CGS was Greece, Athens, Hiroshima, and Mumbai. They were probably the three. If I count all the days spent in place, they were the three. You know, every client brings its own challenge and its own enjoyment. I mean, I think Hiroshima was very special, uh, just because as a historian, that the you know, you did Bongdome and what happened there in 1945 was you know, was was very, you know, you can feel it. And you know, in the book, uh, you know, I I talk about the three three or four big events that I think I always go back to and recall. So I think Hiroshima is definitely one. I think Florence was incredible, and then you mix that in with taking the kids down to Rome, and you know, you you're just around that history and you're around that that art, that architecture. Always have a soft spot for Greece. And then many, many memorable moments for but for different reasons in Botswana, because Botswana was a term where we were very much off tech, we're very much in the wild, and you know, as a human, you just remember stuff like that was the most beautiful sleep I've ever had. You know, you don't hear anything, uh, you're just totally exposed in nature. And then to hear the students talk about those experiences two, three, four, five years later is is quite magic as well. You know, around the technology that of Dubai, where we we became um Shanghai, Tokyo, again, always cool because I never thought as a kid growing up I'd be in these cities. And then, yeah, I always loved going to Latin America as well. I also always had a close place to my heart. But if yeah, you had me, I think Hiroshima was very, very special.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay. I get it. I get it. Japan is a beautiful place, but then Hiroshima has that history and that, you know, grit about it. So now you are the head of Elham Studios. What are you doing now?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so we are Elham Studio, uh, which means inspiration in Arabic, is our studio. And we are working with schools around the world to develop, really helping them move from A to B in regards to curriculum design. As you and I know, you know, there's a lot of things going on in curriculum right now. People are becoming a lot more experimental. Uh, people are taking a lot more risks than they used to. And I think that the beauty of this is, is we've built the model and we did it for over a decade. It works. You know, the Pioneer Group Awards gave TGS the most innovative education model in 2023. Um, we've had wonderful things written about the model, and we've gone through the pain points, I think, really brutal pain points over a decade of how do you grow this very unique alternative system? Um, so I think we've we've learned the hard way. And I think the beauty of that is is we can bring that learning to schools who want to adapt, change, and be creative with their curriculums. So we worked with a wonderful school out in Hong Kong where I've just got back from two days ago called Dalton, and we built their middle school design, and now we're building their high school design. So, just to give you an example, last week was working with the faculty, announcing what high school will potentially look like, working with the students, you know, giving them a picture of what high school will look like, how will it be the same, but also different from middle school? And then also onboarding parents. And then, you know, my team would then design the dynamics, you know, what competences will go and learning objectives will go into this curriculum, you know, what type of design cycle will the students run through if it is a project-based curriculum. And then if you are going to kind of, you know, just come off exams a little bit or a lot, what replaces that void? Is it the portfolio or is it something else? So they're the kind of things we do with schools. And then we work with Alpha Tame at the moment as well, where we are helping them integrate an AI approach within one of the classes. So that's been fun. We've been working on that for over six months now, and we're seeing some really, really cool results out of that working with Alpha Tame and one of their schools here in Dubai.

SPEAKER_01:

Quick question for you. Well, it's not so quick. It's actually the crux of the podcast. When we talk about redesigning curriculum, when we talk about redesigning schools, what are some of those things that you're doing that's going against what's traditionally there?

SPEAKER_02:

I think the approach of designing curriculum learning experiences as an architect. So, for example, if I explain that, the first question we always ask is what are the competences, learning objectives you are working with? You know, what are those tools? Because those have to be embedded. So once we know that, we can then begin, like a good architect would, we can begin to embed those learning objectives, those learning competences that's becoming a more common word now in schools. And then we can say, okay, well, if you've got a learning experience on sustainable cities, what learning competences would you weave into that experience? But that's on the front end where you see, I think, bad project, challenge, whatever you want to call it, based learning, the kind of objectives kind of thrown in. Well, what we would say is like a good architect, I don't say a good architect would not throw an elevator in halfway through a design. You know, that'd be madness. Yeah, sometimes we see that and we don't think it's fair to the students because when the students, especially in PBR, begin to design a project, they should know what they're working with on the front end. Now you always adapt, obviously, in Tinker as you move through, but the core competences should be very clear from the outset. And then again, I think what we do really well, and this was there's two things, there's two hills I was gonna die on at TGS. Then once we've built the competences, one was the design cycle. Okay, what design cycle? So we'd spend a lot of time with our partners working on the design cycle. How are you going to move through these projects, these modules, these quests, and how are you going to transition? How are you going to transition from collecting the research to then building the design? How are you going to move from building the design to sharing it with your parents or community? And then obviously the portfolio, which I think was one of the reasons. We did win so many awards. We spent a lot of time developing, I think, what was a really cool portfolio approach at TGS. So we can begin sharing some of those learnings out there in terms of helping schools kind of hack those big three problems. So I always call it this triangle: competences, design cycle, portfolio. And I think if you can master that, you've got to kind of fight and chance with some of this experimental learning that people are trying to do. What I see in the research is when you're missing one of them, a struggle tends to happen.

SPEAKER_01:

So how do schools fit those kinds of approaches that you're talking about within frameworks like the, you know, maybe the Dubai inspection framework? Because these frameworks are looking for certain things, and then schools are then trying to innovate within those things. How do they reconcile that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think we're seeing changes now that can reconcile it. So I think the the US curriculum approach has always been fairly flexible. That's what we worked with for many years post-IB. And we found that fairly flexible in terms of if you know what you're doing in that system, in that approach, I think you can have great success because it allows flexibility in the design process. How you accredit grades and and you know assign the GPA, uh, yeah, it can be quite dynamic. I know the IB are beginning to introduce the new systems approach. That's kind of a new course that's come out that looks fairly dynamic. And, you know, the the British approach, I think people are still trying to crack that one. So I think in terms of existing frameworks, I think all of them present challenges, opportunities, uh, but they're not the same. Uh I mean, and there's probably some truth and some challenge that that are similar in each one, but I think each one presents a bit of a different opportunity and challenge. That's what we see on the ground any anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's talk about the British curriculum because if there are five schools opening in our region, four of them are UK curriculum. There's such an appeal for it, but it is the most rigid of all of them that you've just mentioned. Do you have any ideas about how we go about redesigning that?

SPEAKER_02:

I think who cracks that code is that will bring a lot of success. If you can crack that code of having an approach towards the the system that I'm not sure which system you did. I mean, I did GCSE in A level, and I think that you know, so I know it. So what I'm saying is I'm trying not to pontificate from a system I don't know. I I I lived that experience as many of your viewers probably did. I think, well, we're all seeing a little bit of that, aren't we, back home? Where you're saying that in the UK, some schools have actually dropped GCSE.

SPEAKER_01:

Two schools.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, two, two, but but then again, how many does it take to disrupt? You know, TGS was one school, but we always believed we could we could disrupt the system, maybe foolishly, maybe foolishly. So if you saw some success there, could that be enough for a few others to follow? I don't know. I I don't know, maybe, but I think we could use technology a lot more. I think you know, if you are going to introduce place and project-based opportunities, you could begin to layer in the textbook, so to speak, and some of the big ideas and big concepts from exam-based education. So, therefore, could you start doing classes and because even in GCSE, you block information up, you know, you would do or A-level, you know, you would do World War I, you do World War II, you do the Cold War as a historian. Could you make that more through a design cycle? Could you put that through potentially more portfolio where the kids are gathering data, gathering information, and not just going in and kind of frog marching into each class, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And each one is fairly silo from the other, although there's a kind of theme connecting it. So I honestly I don't know. But then I think you've got to honor is that even what it was designed for? And if it's not, then maybe you just keep it as it is, but be a little more and this, you know, I think I think you and I have spoken about this online, but then being a little more honest about what you're doing, because I am noticing a trend in quite structured schools and structured curriculum where it's kind of they want to live in both worlds, where now it's like you find project-based learning or place-based appearing on the website. And I am curious about that. Say, well, how you know how authentic is that? Is that just the marketing team going a bit rogue, or is are you really living these alternative frameworks, or is it just marketing that you need to throw on a website? I don't know. I I talk a bit about this in the book to say a lot of the schools that I visited in the research, it tended to be the bumper sticker. It tended to be, oh, we do PBL, but we don't really. So I think we've got to watch out for that because parents are rightly gonna be if they enroll for a school that promises X and they get Y. I think it's very easy to blame governing bodies, but I don't blame governing bodies if you say on the tin, we're doing this and they visit and you're not doing it. I don't think you can blame them, you know, because they're gonna, again, they're looking for X and you're delivering Y. So I do think there's nothing wrong with doing a traditional British approach, but just say that's what you're doing, because then everyone knows where we stand. And, you know, and there's going to be a market for it. Of course there is. Still parents that want to send their young people to schools that have eternal exam approach. But I think the kind of problem we're getting in now is I think some schools want to live in both worlds, and I think that's very tricky for the British schools. And I don't know where this goes. I really don't. I don't, I think we're in the midst of it right now, and we're not really seeing what evolves out, or we won't see what evolves out of this for a little, for a little time yet.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because I keep thinking about it in terms of we say we want innovation, we say we want change, we say we see that the world does not require us to have this one terminal examination that is the be all and and all. We see this. We say we want this. However, we make, I think, no move towards shifting it. And the we I'm talking about is the royal we of the the people who can make the diff the changes, the policymakers, the government, and that type of thing. I just I was watching something. I'm not quite sure where Keir Starmer was, and I know this is getting a little bit political, but he was talking about how he wants to get AI infused into the curriculum in the UK. And I was like, really? I mean, how exactly are you planning to do that? Because there isn't any real uh guidance or policy that's been put in place. They've done some loose AI guidelines in England that I've actually read, and that's why I'm calling it loose, because it doesn't really say much about the implementation and the gains or even the guardrails, the realistic guardrails, they make certain warnings, but there's nothing that really specifies what guardrails need to be put in place, etc. etc. And so that makes me wonder how much of an appetite there really is for any true change. And I can go on and on and on about this, but you've written the Firefly effect. I would love to learn about what's within those pages. What can people get when they open that book and read it?

SPEAKER_02:

So, yeah, the book is about, and I was really determined on this, not to make it about school. I wanted it to be around learning. And as I said to a few friends, I've got a few friends visiting from Manchester at the moment, and they were asking me about, you know, what why I wrote the book. And it was very much, I think it was kind of almost like a love letter to my father. You know, my father has some health issues recently, and I don't know how much my kind of mood I really knew about this crazy nomadic traveling life that I had. So it was kind of a bit, I wanted in internally within that, I wanted to paint a little bit of a picture on some of the things that I'd learned as I traveled the world, some of the moments, but package that within this wider element that we're living in this very disrupted world right now, which isn't just affecting school, it's affecting how we learn, how we process information. So, although school obviously comes up because that's such a part of my DNA, I wanted the book to be around learning. So I talk a lot about um professional development and how companies have adapted and changed. So, yeah, school's in there as part of how we learn. Of course it is. How could it not be? But also the book looks at other ecosystems as well in terms of how we learn, whether that be in work or at home. So the I'll give you an example. The first chapter really looks at time. And it was quite funny because as I was doing the research, this is so obvious, but it I don't know why I'd never thought about it before. People walked around for centuries and had no real idea of exact time. It was all kind of round about. So this idea I've got to be a meeting at 2:45 on the dot now kind of didn't exist until fairly recently. So, so I talk about time, and then we get into the chapter kind of evolves into this idea that in the current world, skills have been learned so quickly through technology. So, what would have taken us years and years to learn, and we would have only had access to various sources. I'm sure you like me, you know, we used to go to the library, we used to find the book, we used to say it, we used to go, and that took time. Like you had to walk there, you had to find it. You then you had to be home because you know, your mum was like, you know, where are you? So with technology, this time is collapsing, and I see it all the time. My alumni students who were with me five, six, seven years ago at TGS, are now starting businesses, now learning all these incredible skills because they've got information, they can get it in nanoseconds. So I talk a lot about this idea that and and also how skills, the life of a skill is beginning to collapse as well. Like if I looked at the skill that I had as an educator, then let's be honest. It was standing in front of a class, it was classroom control, it was me disseminating information, making sure this group of young people in front of me were prepared for an exam. That was a skill. But that skill has begun to collapse rapidly now in this new world. So time is the essence of one chapter. And then just the quick example from the second chapter was I borrowed a term from professional wrestling called Kfabe. And this idea of Kfabe is that, you know, professional wrestling is obviously fake. It's an act. But if you go to an event, and my brother loves professional wrestling, and he'll go all over the place to watch it, everyone's in on the act. You don't go and sit there and go, This is fake, you know, what's going on? You just be part of the act. So, what I say is the point of kayfabe is everyone knows it's a show, but everyone goes along with it. So I begin to say within education, how, and it's particularly education on this chapter, we've kind of fallen into this trap of we've all known it's been broken, but we've all gone along with the show for so long, we've almost lost the drive and ambition to really change it. And also in work as well, you know, we do a one-year review and you go through the whole idea of your one-year annual review with your boss, and he pretends he cares about it. You pretend you're invested, you never look at it again in most jobs. But you do it, you go through the act. So, so the second chapter is all about this concept of kayfabe and how we see this act go on all around us. And then now we kind of use the jargon, you know, innovation, reimagination. And I really question what what do some of these big terms mean? I think you know, because you know me well enough, like reimagination just makes me coil. I'm just like, goodness, no, how much longer do we talk about reimagination, whatever that's supposed to mean? And why do we never talk about design? Why do we never talk about the risk taking that comes with building? No, no, no, we'll stay with reimagining it, because that's quite a safe space, I think, to just reimagining it and not really do much with that reimagining. So, yeah, so there's some of the things. So look at time, I look at this concept of K-fabe, and then the idea that prototyping and building is becoming a rapid process. So looking at design studios like IDEO, how companies like Mid Journey, obviously OpenAI, and others have just built so fast. And you can see it, you know, you can see it all the time if you log in to LinkedIn or X. People are just building so fast now. It's kind of scary. New products are coming online so fast. Um, but this is the world we're in. And how do we even keep up with it? I don't, you know, AI, perfect example. How does a human keep up with all the releases in AI? I mean, good luck. I mean, it's so hard.

SPEAKER_01:

It's interesting when you talked about K Fame. I was like, that is the best analogy I've actually heard in a long time. Because it really is that we all know the thing is fake, and we're all there clapping for the award for innovation when we blinking, well, no, it wasn't innovative. It really is just an act, isn't it? And and what's crazy is that we will not move the needle at all because it's not in our interest to do so. And the reason I say it's not in our interest is because we know that disruption costs, it costs livelihood, it costs time, it costs brain power. There is a cost. And are we willing to pay that cost? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know. I don't know, but I think we're beginning to see. So, for example, any major project that we do around the world, we always benchmark what we're building. You know, we always look what's out there, what's going on. That's not to imitate and copy it, that's to be inspired, that's to know what's going on in the field. And I am noticing now two things, because your point on innovation is super valid, and I think we now have to get really good at spotting the authentic innovation. You know, who's really and how do we even judge it? I don't think we've cracked that code at all if you attend these various ceremonies where people are getting their awards and good luck to them. You know, good luck to them. But how do we actually really spot the programs and initiatives that are providing value where where the young people in them are coming alive? And I'll give you an example. My favorite is NewVoo in Boston. Every time we benchmark NewVoo, it's just for me, it's just a really cool program and school. You know, obviously a lot of buzz around Alpha right now, in terms of what they're doing with the two-hour learning and then doing the PBL and the place-based stuff in the afternoons. So I think now certain programs, whether you love them or hate them, are beginning to emerge through the noise. And I would say Alpha's one, Acton Academy's beginning quite vibrant online. Like I say, I personally really love the work the New Vu do. So I think quality will emerge, I would say, in the next 12 to 18 months. And I'm excited by that. I'm excited by a lot of us beginning to, you know, push aside the nonsense and really reward those programs and individuals that are doing great work, not just some of these lists that are produced, and you're just like, why? You know, unless have you really done the deep diet? If you're going to award, you know, write these lists on LinkedIn and blah, blah, blah. Are you, you know, have you really done your homework? Have you really done your research? Are these people and institutions really making a difference? Because we need to know, as we forage forward, we need to know where the programs, because we need to know what they're doing. We need they they can be such a help for us. So I think I'm I'm excited by, I hope, in the next 12 to 18 months, some of the noise maybe dying down a bit and some of these exciting programs beginning to emerge so we can understand them a little more. What are they doing right? What are they doing wrong? How have they come through the noise?

SPEAKER_01:

You mentioned too that I'm quite um fascinated by. I wrote a piece on alpha schools and man did the people come at me on LinkedIn, but I'm like, come at me, because you know how my back is broad, boy. You know, you cannot come at me. The new school and alpha school, I'm fascinated by them, but I'm surprised that Dubai and UAE for where we are haven't done anything in this realm. I'm shocked. I just keep looking at our ecosystem and going, why are we opening more British curriculum schools? No disrespect, Britain. Like you educated me, I'm not mad. But why are we not pushing the envelope here? Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_02:

I think you said it perfectly earlier in the podcast. It's familiar. And I think familiar is familiar is comfortable. You know, when we launched Think Global and those first few years, those parents really took a leap of faith in us. Now, fast forward six, seven years, it became far more mainstream. But those early adopters, yeah, they were brave families, they were brave individuals. And I think Dubai's rapidly changed post-pandemic, you know, people, it it's a rapidly changing city. So I think maybe if there is a slowdown in pace, perhaps, where we can just take stock and say, okay, we've got all these British schools. Is it time to just start a new model and start something else? And there are a few little ones beginning to emerge, but like you say, and I think you're spot on with this, it is surprising the kind of and and it's not a pushback from the people who would call this home. It tends to be an ex-part pushback, any new model, and you just get blown away on platforms like LinkedIn, you know, and it gets really quite nasty. You're like guys, no one knows where this is gonna end up. And I always uh yeah, I'm always very skeptical about people who know. I mean, I've done this a long time, I've built a lot of different curriculums and schools. I I hope I'm still humble enough to say, hey, my attitude can change. You show me a different model, I'm all ears, I will listen. And if if you've got a better idea than me, then let's build that. Let's do that. But what really shocks me sometimes is the people who know, and you go anywhere social. Do we have across the Middle East more than enough British schools? Probably yeah. And I think there's a hunger. You know, I I taught to many people out and about in Dubai, and I do feel there's a hunger for something different. So, you know, I do believe those first movers will be rewarded. I think if you move in this ecosystem, probably Saudi and Kazar as well. Um, I know it's happening in Hong Kong with our partners there. If you move first, there's a big pain point because you're first and it's lonely, and you'll get attacked and you'll get slammed on LinkedIn. But like you say, sometimes you just gotta have broad shoulders and take it. Um, because yeah, what's the worst that's gonna happen? Some people are gonna agree with them, but but a lot won't. I think a lot won't. And I think a lot of people do want to see new ideas. So if somebody moves in an alpha or action or new voodoo or no school way, I think we'll be tremendously rewarded.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I do agree. I don't know enough investors or or so to say tap them on the shoulder and say, hey, maybe it's time for you to look out there for models that are going against the grain and gaining success. Not just going against the grain for the sake of it, but really gone in success.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I and I my gut is that will happen. My gut is, I think a new, you know, I think the micro school idea is is is attractive. I think. People have moved into the region that would be a lot more experimental in nature with their education in terms of the conversations I'm having around the fringes. So I'm excited for the region. I think these British schools will open. There'll probably be a market for them. But I'm excited by those who take a couple of risks. And I think there is tremendous reward for these schools. And I think the kids, you know, we've had what maybe 10, 10 years of alumni when I was there at TGS. And the kids have going out there who've lived a project-based, place-based, passion-based, purpose-based experience, and they're doing amazing things in the world. They're doing amazing things in the world. They're sitting on businesses, NGOs, they are. Some work for me now in my design studio. They're brilliant young people doing wonderful things. As I'm sure students who graduate British schools are, but the thing is, I don't think those of us who have worked in the alternative space have spent as much time demonizing the other as has been spent demonizing us. And you know, I think that's been the difference. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm excited to see what happens in the region. I I think it's going to be dynamic. I think if a school like Alpha, whatever you think of it, can lead the way, then good on them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I was talking to Hugh Viney the other day from Minerva, and we were talking about what's the future. We were just, you know, chatting it up as we do. And he said the future is choice. And I was like, that's it. That's it right there. It is not the this is the way, only this way. No, the future is choice. So as a mom or a dad within our family, we discuss and we have the choice of what pathways our child takes as it relates to education. And when you go around other parents, there shouldn't be that judgment that your child doesn't go to a brick or mortar or they don't go to a, or maybe they are going to a Think Global type school or an alpha type school or a new VU. It actually is about that choice, you know, just the same way as you would choose anything else. I can't let you leave the pod without, because we're winding down, but I can't let you leave the pod without talking about AI and talking about how we work with it as human beings. And I know there's some stuff in your book about that. What are your thoughts on the place AI holds in schools? How should we be thinking about this?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mention it in the book, and I'm gonna steal a line from my good friend Darren Coxon, uh, because I think he says it really well, that AI should walk beside us and behind us, but not in front of us. And I really like that because I think it's relatable. So this idea that AI, and I think Ethan Molly talks about this idea of co-intelligence, and again, I think that's it. How do we partner with AI where we're not outsourcing our thinking to a point where we want to keep our curiosity, we want to keep our imagination as human beings, but we do have this amazing tool. And again, this idea of tools, tools have always been there. We've always adapted to tools. Uh, this is another tool. Yes, it's really powerful and it scares a lot of people, but it's a tool. And I think we have to learn, because I don't think this is going anywhere. So I think we've got to learn how to coexist with it. And I think those are the skills schools need to focus on. So, what I think that might be because we also have an AI studio and an AI platform that we've built over the last 12 months. And and one of the things, one of the areas of kind of design and research my my engineers are doing right now is we're really looking at how do the young people get to the prompt? What's the journey? There's something we're calling journey to the prompts. How do they get there? And then how do they then prompt? So I had a wonderful chat in Hong Kong with one of the students who, because we had a bit of a session about obviously AI and talking about how the students felt about it. And this young man, he's about 15, and he said, Yeah, you know, my fault is I'm asking it, I know I'm doing it. I'm asking AI to do all my work. And he was, it was almost like a call for help. He said, What I want next is I want to work with my teachers to actually begin not to tell AI to do my work, but begin for it to coach and mentor me. He didn't quite say it like that, but but that's kind of what it where he was trying to articulate. And I thought that was really powerful. That that even when the students are maybe outsourcing too much to AI, there was a lot. What I found in the sessions we held out in Hong Kong was actually there was a great awareness of that because all the other kids were nodding away, saying, Yeah, yeah. So I think this idea of partnering is really powerful. I don't think there's any runway now to start banning it. I worry about the whole slew of AI safety experts that are coming on the scene. I worry not all intentions are quite noble. Because this is the problem we've got in schools, and we keep repeating it. We create a Frankenstein's monster of the technology that lives inside schools, and then we expect students not to engage with that same technology outside of schools. So you can wrap around and subvert and Frankenstein's monster the AI all you want in school. The kids will use the genuine version outside of school. So VR was the same thing. You know, we would create the school version of AI, was of VR, and then the kids were playing like F1, you know, shoe em up games on VR. And you can't compare the technology that Sony etc. are producing outside the walls of schools. You can't recreate that in schools. And what are you gonna do? No, guys, you can only use the technology we design in school. That isn't how the world works. Young people will engage in technology in weird and wonderful ways outside the four walls of a classroom in school. So I think creating this weird Frankenstein monster of the technology inside of school is a mistake. I think what we've got to teach is good use. I think we've got to teach some of the ethics around use and the morality, where to use it, where not, um, what is a genuine, potentially Socratic and conversational moment or a human-to-human moment like we're having now, versus where do we need to get onto AI and ask it to help us do whatever? So I think we've got to be really careful because otherwise I think we're gonna get led down a really odd path. Um, you know, we you and I lived through this with the internet. You know, internet was gonna destroy education. People were on, you can't Google, you know, it wasn't Google back then, was it? It was like Ash Jeeves and all, you know, you can't search on this on the internet, yeah. So where did that get us? No, we now use it and no one really cares. We just use it. So I think ultimately we just it we're just delaying the inevitable, and I and I really worry we're gonna OTT this this, you know, of course we need good safe use, but let's also be smart enough to know what goes on outside school, and we don't live in a vacuum. So let's be smart about this and let's really look at partnership and and good use and have a conversation about what are the essential elements to AI safety and use and what actually is just kind of noise, and we're trying to sound a bit smarter than we are about you know, wrapping this technology a million different ways.

SPEAKER_01:

That is so true. That is so true, and I love that quote that you gave from Darren Cox. And I know Darren well, I will just I'll tag him in the episode. Thank you so much, Russell. Listen, the Firefire Effect is on Amazon people. I'm actually waiting for my signed copy, you know, because sh but please do get a copy um and see exactly what Russell is talking about when he talks about the different things that that are on his mind as he thinks through this whole mire that we have here called education. Because it is a mire, I'm telling you. Thank you for being on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02:

My pleasure. Take care.

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Leisa Grace Wilson

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